Human Resources Committee on April 26th, 2007

[Jeanette MacAulay, Deputy Minister, Department of Social Services and Seniors, Government of Prince Edward Island]

Thank you very much.

Good morning, Chair, and members.

Thank you for the opportunity to present to you. I wish to express the regrets of Minister Gillan to the table. He had hoped to join you, but I think the Premier may be announcing something in the next two or three days, and he doesn't want to leave home. That's why I'm here.

The Government of Prince Edward Island has worked closely with provincial stakeholders in the early childhood sector to develop a plan for early child development that meets the needs of our children. We have also shown leadership in work with colleagues from other jurisdictions. In fact, Minister Gillan, the Minister of Social Services and Seniors, has been the co-chair of the Federal-Provincial-Territorial Ministers Responsible for Early Learning and Child Care, which created a national vision to guide early child development.

The 2000 First Ministers' Agreement on Early Child Development and the 2003 Multilateral Agreement on Early Learning and Child Care were precursors to this work, and established an important focus in our province on the early years. With funding from these agreements, Prince Edward Island has made significant progress in the support of healthy child development and specific early learning and child care needs.

For example, our province has implemented a universal newborn hearing screening program; financed a province-wide best start home visiting program in collaboration with family resource centres; improved programming for children with special needs in our licensed child care centres; implemented a community-based, integrated kindergarten program; developed curriculum resources, program delivery, and parental engagement supports for all licensed early childhood programs; and enhanced the child care subsidy program so that more low- and middle-income parents can access licensed early learning and child care programs.

The province of Prince Edward Island has unique needs and strengths. We understand the long-lasting impact of quality early childhood experiences for our children. In February, Premier Binns announced details of a long-term plan for investment in regulated child care programs in our province.

Our framework is built on working with our local early learning sector to address the principles of quality, universality, accessibility, and accountability. Our government was successful in advancing the vision for early learning and addressing these principles in concert with our provincial partners. I believe this is the essence of what this bill is trying to accomplish.

However, Bill C-303 has a number of features that are problematic for provincial and territorial governments. I would like to highlight those impacts for Prince Edward Island.

P.E.I. has approximately 8,500 children aged five and under, and a high rate of labour force participation among mothers of these children. At 80%, it's the highest in the country. P.E.I. is in an enviable position. We have licensed spaces available for 46% of our children from infancy to age five. Canada has spaces for less than a quarter of our children.

There are three points that I would like to highlight when discussing the impact of Bill C-303: overlay with provincial jurisdiction, exclusion of private operators, and impact on small jurisdictions.

One, Bill C-303 is prescriptive regarding funds provided for programs that are in an area of provincial jurisdiction. A national vision should support our collective effort to enhance the awareness and understanding of quality early experiences, while enabling jurisdictions to respond and evolve based on the specific local needs of children and families. Governments cannot, in good conscience, do anything to further restrict the child care sector. We would be in effect crippling an already fragile system by imposing further funding restrictions such as those described in Bill C-303.

In P.E.I. we are seeing a high rate of turnover in staff and operators, and our centres are operating below capacity, at 67%. Like all provinces, we are committed to supporting and strengthening our early learning sector and need federal support in doing that, but we all have unique features that need to be understood.

Prince Edward Island has just implemented a new direct funding grant program to centres that will be based on adhering to quality principles. We have also enhanced our child care subsidy program and doubled the number of infant spaces available in our province.

Our provincial challenge is to complement planned provincial initiatives for children and families in P.E.I. by encouraging flexibility, supporting new and existing partnerships, and being creative within the existing system. This needs to happen in concert with our local communities and be reflected in our provincial child care act and regulations, policies, and practices.

Second, Bill C-303 would limit funding to early learning and child care programs administered by the provincial government or operated on a not-for-profit basis only. Of our early childhood centres in P.E.I., 46% are non-profit and 54% are private.

The majority of our full-day centres--in fact, 74%--which also offer our community-based kindergarten program in a seamless day setting, are also private. This is an enviable component of our community-based program for parents who work. Sixty percent of our licensed early childhood centres that have children with special needs, and 90% of the centres that provide infant care, are private centres.

As you see, private operators on Prince Edward Island provide invaluable services to parents and communities in areas that are not well compensated and that require extensive investment of human and material resources. Private and non-profit early childhood centres are equally distributed across urban and rural communities. Both auspices are viewed as integral components of our communities.

Some communities would feel a significant impact, and our sector would be divided, if funding were allocated according to the criteria of Bill C-303. Prince Edward Island prefers to use the term “private” rather than “for profit” because these centres are not businesses that carry healthy profit margins, if any.

Third, Bill C-303 establishes a mechanism for the transfer of early learning and child care funding from the federal government to provinces. Funding levels based on a typically per capita formula do not allow smaller provinces to fully implement systems that realize the obligations outlined in Bill C-303.

In conclusion, we are committed to working with our partners to strengthen an early learning and child care system in P.E.I. that is based on broad availability, accessibility, universality, and the capability of measuring and monitoring quality.

A national vision by the federal government is indeed supported and encouraged. However, the unique circumstances of jurisdictions need to be recognized, and adequate funding should align with provincial planning, priorities, and realities. However, as outlined in Bill C-303, the criteria and conditions required to be met for the transfer of funds to provinces and territories are onerous, inflexible, and without consideration of existing provincial plans. They would result in an erosion of our system, not a strengthening of our child care sector.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Ms. MacAulay. I appreciate the fact that seven minutes is probably not enough time to get everything in, but you were pretty close. Thank you very much.

We're now going to move to the Government of Nova Scotia. We're fortunate to have the Honourable Judy Streatch, Minister of Community Services, with us today, along with Ms. O'Connell, the director of early childhood development services.

We want to thank both of you ladies for being here today.

You have seven minutes, Ms. Streatch.

[Judy Streatch, Minister of Community Services, Government of Nova Scotia]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning. My name is Judy Streatch. I have the privilege of being Nova Scotia's Minister of Community Services.

I am joined today by a representative from our department to help provide Nova Scotia's view regarding Bill C-303. l would like to introduce Virginia O'Connell, director of early childhood development services. Mrs. O'Connell manages the licensing, monitoring, policy, and standards for all licensed child care centres in the province. She has worked in the field of early childhood development for more than 25 years.

Personally, as a mother of four and a teacher for 15 years, I am passionate about the direction, progress, and diversity of early learning and child care in Nova Scotia. Let me tell you a little about the progress we've been making.

Nova Scotia offers programs that support families and foster healthy child development between the ages of newborn and 12 years, in accordance with the Nova Scotia Day Care Act and regulations.

In recognition of Nova Scotia's commitment to quality child care, my government created a 10-year early learning and child care plan for Nova Scotia last May. In developing the plan we took into account consultation sessions and heard from more than 2,600 Nova Scotians regarding their specific issues and priorities, including from commercial and non-profit licensed child care centres and parents. They told us to increase salaries, decrease the cost of care for all families, increase funding for child care, assist in stabilizing the workforce, provide more accessible child care for children with special needs, and increase spaces in licensed child care centres and family home programs.

Folks, l'm happy to say that we're doing all of this. The early learning and child care plan provides a foundation for licensed child care in Nova Scotia that will promote a more inclusive, accessible, and equitable system. To achieve this, we are focusing on the needs of Nova Scotian families by investing more than $137 million in our plan. The recent federal budget provides an additional $7 million per year to support the creation of child care spaces in our province, and it complements our made-in-Nova Scotia child care plan to further help our families access quality care for their children.

We will provide the opportunity, through capital funding, for the creation of at least 1,000 child care spaces. We are creating 550 more portable, subsidized spaces for low-income families. Funding for children with special needs will double.

We recently announced the child care operating grant funding. It provides funding per occupied space for children and infants, and is a key component of the plan to help stabilize the system and facilitate enhanced recruitment and retention of staff while allowing centres to consider future expansion.

We have also made available $1 million in repair and renovation funding across the province to make energy-efficient and accessibility improvements to centres.

We have embarked on our long-term vision for quality and sustainable child care in our province. As you can see, Nova Scotia has a plan, and our plan is well into the development of a child and youth strategy that will address the needs of children, youth, and their families by improving the accessibility of a range of supports and services. Our vision is this: that all Nova Scotia children enjoy a good start in life and are nurtured and supported by caring families and communities.

Bill C-303 presents a serious intrusion by the Parliament of Canada into an area of provincial responsibility. Although Bill C-303 does not compel the federal government to transfer funds to provinces and territories for the purpose of providing early learning and child care programs, it does establish criteria and conditions that provinces and territories would be required to meet related to the expenditure of these transfers.

The provision of early learning and child care is a provincial responsibility. Bill C-303 defines the means by which child care is delivered within each province and territory.

The bill refers to specific criteria. Nova Scotia's plan is built on a set of principles that includes each of the bill's criteria. In fact, these principles have their basis in the word CHILD--comprehensive, high-quality, integration, longevity, and developed on the basis of evidence and accountability.

As you can see, Nova Scotia is not standing still. We are already on the path of implementing a range of services and programs that reflect the diverse needs of Nova Scotian families.

Bill C-303, as federal legislation, would be used as a policy instrument to implement a one-size-fits-all approach to child care. Folks, one size does not fit all in Nova Scotia.

In order to access the funding that would need to accompany the bill, each province or territory would have to abide by all components of the bill's criteria and conditions. This approach would strictly limit the design and delivery of our current and future programs. This approach would require that all funded programs be regulated by provincial governments, and that all new programs or services be delivered by a non-profit agency or service. This would stifle provinces and territories in the creation of new and innovative programs that do not meet these restrictive requirements.

In order to meet the requirements of the bill, taxpayers' dollars would have to be invested in additional administrative and infrastructure costs rather than enabling the development and implementation of programs to best meet the needs of the young children and families of our province. Its administrative and reporting requirements would hamper Nova Scotia's current efficiencies and effectiveness with respect to the initiatives we already have under way and that already envelop the requirements of Bill C-303.

Nova Scotia is moving forward. We are doing so in respect of our families, our children, our early childhood sector, and our diverse cultural and geographic environments. We are currently amending our day care regulations and creating new family home regulations, heightening the standard for care and early education.

We also know that some services needed to support families, such as family resource, parent education, and early intervention programs, require further funding allocations to grow and reach out to the community if we are truly ready to provide comprehensive integrated programs and supports to families. Bill C-303 would severely limit this work.

Our hope as a province is to partner with the federal government to make those initiatives that are respective of Nova Scotians and that enable the flexibility to truly make a difference in the lives of children and families.

In closing, I would like to say that Nova Scotia wishes to continue to be an equal partner in the implementation and development of programs that will best serve the young children and families of Canada and Nova Scotia. We do not need Bill C-303 to do this.

The 2001 ECD and 2003 multilateral ELCC agreements are good examples of how governments have negotiated to provide additional funding to early childhood development, learning, and care programs and services. Nova Scotia would prefer to negotiate agreements like this with the federal government rather than having conditions imposed upon us.

I thank you very much for the opportunity to provide you with an overview of the great strides we are making on child care in Nova Scotia, and for listening to our views on Bill C-303.

Thank you. Merci.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Minister Streatch.

We're now going to move to the Government of the Northwest Territories. With us today we have the Honourable Charles Dent, Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, and Dan Daniels, Deputy Minister.

If this were a wedding and we had centrepieces, you guys would win the prize for being from furthest way. We don't, but thank you for making the trip to be here.

Minister Dent, we look forward to hearing what you have to say. You have seven minutes, sir.

[Charles Dent, Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Government of the Northwest Territories]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good morning, committee members.

I'd like to thank the committee for providing the opportunity for the Government of the Northwest Territories to make a presentation to you this morning in respect of Bill C-303.

We're concerned by the manner in which this bill will insert federal influence into an area of jurisdiction that is exclusively provincial and territorial in nature. That this is proposed with no consultation with our territory is unacceptable. Just as our government consults with aboriginal governments when appropriate, such as when considering a wildlife act, we expect and deserve the same consideration from the federal level.

It is especially frustrating when this bill comes forward with no expectation that there will be new money attached. Right now, the lion's share of money expended in the early learning and child care field in the Northwest Territories comes from the Government of the Northwest Territories' coffers. This year, we have increased the funding in our early childhood programs by 20%.

We are concerned that, should this bill pass, it will make it difficult for us to renew the funding agreements we have with the federal government, which, while being minor parts of our total spending for early learning and child care, are nonetheless important to the operation of our system.

Before I get into some specific comments on Bill C-303, I would like to provide some background about the Northwest Territories. I hope this will help explain the implications that Bill C-303 would have on the way we support the delivery of early learning and child care programs and services in the Northwest Territories.

I would like to begin by giving you some of the demographics of the Northwest Territories.

We have 32 communities in the Northwest Territories. The largest is the city of Yellowknife, with a population of approximately 19,500, and the smallest is Jean Marie River, which has a population of 70 people.

It may interest you to know that the school in Jean Marie River has seven students this year. Given that, I'm sure you'll understand that it's very unlikely we'll see a child care centre developed in that community or in others that are similarly small.

There is no or very limited road access to the majority of communities in the Northwest Territories. Many are only accessible by road during a brief winter ice road season. The remoteness and isolation have a great impact on many things in a community, including the availability of program materials. Facility development or activities requiring resources require detailed planning well in advance in order to place equipment orders for arrival by barge once a year, or residents must face the high cost of flying in materials.

The NWT population is approximately 50% aboriginal, with our smaller communities being primarily aboriginal. There are 11 official languages in the Northwest Territories, and we are seeing significant declines in aboriginal language use by our young people in many regions.

The Northwest Territories has a very healthy employment rate and a very low unemployment rate, but the territories-wide nature of those numbers masks the sometimes very high unemployment rate in our smaller communities.

Currently the Northwest Territories has 110 licensed early learning and child care programs operating. These include child care facilities, part-time preschool programs, family day homes, and after-school programs. From these programs, we have access to 1,711 licensed spaces for families.

There are licensed early learning and child care programs in 28 of the 32 communities in the Northwest Territories. The majority of full-time early learning and child care programs are within the city of Yellowknife.

Right now, the individual needs within each community determine the type of program that is required. Many small communities deliver programs on a part-time basis, recognizing the needs and hours of employment in a small community. A lot of our programs are offered by family day homes.

We believe fundamentally that early learning and child care programs in the north must be community based. This means programs are developed and operated by community groups or individuals to meet community needs. They know what's best for their children.

Locally determined and locally driven programs not only provide the opportunity to reflect the individual community needs but also allow a focus on language and culture of the community. In recent years, we've been working to help revitalize aboriginal languages by providing young children with opportunities to learn their language. Following the Maori and Hawaiian examples of language nests, in 2003 the Government of the Northwest Territories began investing funds to assist existing early learning and child care programs to develop their program into a language nest.

Aboriginal children who attend these language nest programs have daily interaction with elders and speakers in the language and culture of the community. Traditional practices and ways of learning are used in the centres, and operators ensure that a variety of learning styles are addressed.

We're finding that language nests in the north are inspiring parents and other adults in communities to learn their aboriginal language.

Mr. Chairman, family day homes can also support immersion in the language and culture of the community through exposure to traditional language, ways of learning, and culture.

The proposed bill would require the Northwest Territories to meet certain criteria to be able to access federal funding supports. We agree that it is important to strive to achieve programs and supports that promote quality, universality, accessibility, and accountability. In fact, we already have well-established standards and reporting processes in place.

We know these reflect the realities of our jurisdiction and support the development and operation of culturally appropriate child care spaces. We are concerned that new federal standards developed as a result of this bill may impact on the mandate of the Government of the Northwest Territories for early learning and child care and may remove the flexibility that is inherent in the way authority and jurisdiction are divided among provinces and territories and the federal government.

Mr. Chairman, a national early learning and child care act will be hard pressed to deal with the diverse needs and circumstances across the country. The factors involved in providing early learning and child care opportunities in rural, remote, and isolated communities are quite different from those of large urban environments.

Bill C-303 stipulates that funding be linked to a requirement for service to be provided through not-for-profit individuals or groups. While the bill proposes to grandfather for-profit service providers that are in the place prior to the coming into force of the act, new for-profit individuals or groups will not be included. This causes us significant concern.

Right now, family day homes provide 40% of licensed child care in the Northwest Territories. Family day homes are not registered not-for-profit organizations and they fill a valuable need in our small communities, where there's limited infrastructure and little need for larger programs.

As you would expect, there is turnover in family day homes over time, so if this bill proceeds we fear that when it comes time to renew the agreements we now have with the federal government, we will find that we are unable to equitably support a vitally important part of our day care system. That result would greatly impact the flexibility we have in using a range of service providers. In turn, this will impact the availability of services to children and their parents.

As well, since family day homes are run for profit, this would also limit the opportunities for individuals in our smallest communities, where employment prospects may be limited from setting up a for-profit service as a career choice.

Mr. Chairman, the fiscal reporting that the bill calls for would also cause problems in the north. Clause 8 calls for a report to Parliament within 60 days of the end of the fiscal year. Meeting such requirements will be a challenge for small operators. We don't require reports from operators that quickly now, and ensuring that they could meet that sort of deadline so we could report to the federal government would require more support. Funding to support administration to comply with such reporting would be better used for programming to support children.

In conclusion, early learning and child care is clearly a provincial and territorial jurisdiction, allowing provinces and territories to meet child care needs in this diverse country. We take that responsibility seriously.

I don't think this bill is necessary. We already cover these matters through our existing territorial legislation that reflects our unique situation in the Northwest Territories. We have the NWT Child Day Care Act, which lays out the requirements for child care programs in the NWT, including licensing, operating requirements, and offences. Regulations further lay out the duties of child care operators, physical requirements for child day care facilities, daily programming, nutritional standards, health care, hazards and emergencies, and staff qualifications and training.

We can't help but note the clause referring to the unique circumstances of Quebec when it comes to delivering early learning and child care programming, and respectfully suggest that all provinces and territories be recognized similarly.

We don't need more rules to deliver quality programming in our territory, Mr. Chairman, we need more money. While we would welcome a meaningful federal contribution to assist us in supporting quality early learning and child care in the north, it will not be meaningful if it's done in isolation, with no input from the territory.

I encourage you to scrap this bill and press the federal government to continue discussions with the provinces, territories, and early childhood stakeholders to ensure that decisions about investments in early learning and child care support the diversity of Canada--its geography, communities, and families.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Once again, thank you, Minister Dent, for being here today. We appreciate how far you've had to travel to be here.

I'd like to move on now to the City of Toronto.

Again, Ms. Davis, it's nice to have you here as a councillor representing the city. You have seven minutes as well.

[Janet Davis, Councillor, City of Toronto]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the committee for the opportunity to participate in your deliberations on Bill C-303. I'm pleased to be here in person to represent the City of Toronto and to express, on behalf of city council, our full support for the provisions of Bill C-303.

I'm a member of Toronto city council, vice-chair of our board of health, vice-chair of the community development and recreation committee, as well as the children's advocate for the city of Toronto.

I'm here with Petr Varmuza, the director of Toronto Children's Services.

I too am a parent of two children who were fortunate to attend excellent regulated child care from infancy to school age, and who have benefited as a result.

Toronto is Canada's largest city and sixth-largest government, and home to a diverse population of 2.6 million people. The City of Toronto manages the largest child care system in Canada outside of the province of Quebec, with a budget of $336 million in 2007. As you know, in Ontario municipalities have a legislated role in the delivery and management of the child care system.

Toronto recognizes the significant contribution that high-quality, accessible, and affordable child care and early learning programs make to the healthy development of young children and the economic and social well-being of families and communities.

Toronto's child care system provides a range of services for over 65,000 children, including directly operated and community based licensed group child care, family home child care, after-school and summer programs, family resource centres, and special needs programs for children from infancy to school age.

Currently the city provides child care fee subsidies for 23,844 children in 16,000 families. Of those who receive subsidies, 50% pay no fee. Despite the size of our programs, Toronto still only provides services for about one-quarter of the children who need child care, and there are over 10,000 children on our waiting list for subsidized child care.

As you can see, Toronto has made a major commitment to child care and has a critical interest in the future of child care legislation and funding in Canada. Toronto's child care system is guided by a comprehensive service plan and operating criteria with established principles, service levels, program priorities, and program standards to ensure quality.

Toronto's service plan is focused on providing equitable access to services, high-quality programs, and planned growth in underserved age groups and communities. However, the city has been unable to make any significant progress, as the public policy environment and financing of child care and family programs has shifted dramatically over the past 12 years. Federal and provincial governments have changed program and funding priorities, forcing the city to change policy directions, fund services beyond its legislated cost-sharing levels, and often struggle simply to protect rather than expand services.

This has made the municipal role in service delivery and management challenging and unpredictable. Under ECDA, the previous Ontario government invested all the federal transfers in programs other than child care. This became known as the “ABC” policy--anything but child care.

Under the federal-provincial early learning and child care agreement signed in 2005, the Province of Ontario developed the Best Start plan to expand child care and early learning programs for children under six. As required by the province, the city developed a three-year service and infrastructure plan in partnership with school boards and other community service providers to develop new integrated models of service delivery.

Our plan is here and I've brought copies for you, if you're interested.

Toronto created over 3,000 new licensed spaces and 2,000 fee subsidies in 59 centres in the first year of Best Start. This was funded through the federal transfers, of course. An additional 3,400 spaces were planned, and provincial transfers were slated at $125 million annually. All expansion under Best Start or any new future funding program in Toronto will be delivered in the not-for-profit sector, or delivered by our municipally directly operated sector.

In 2006, when the federal-provincial early learning and child care agreement was cancelled, Ontario chose to distribute the final year of funding over four years. As a result, funding for Toronto was reduced from $125 million to $27 million per year.

These funding changes have meant the cancellation of further expansion under our Best Start plan, and a serious funding shortfall for the remainder of our child care system. Toronto is now facing a shortfall of $35 million, which, if not solved by the end of 2007, will result in the loss of 3,500 subsidized spaces.

The 2007 federal budget allocated $97 million to the province of Ontario for child care. The 2007 Ontario budget allocated $25 million for child care this year, and $50 million next year. Toronto has been allocated $6.8 million in 2007, and $9.1 million in 2008, far short of the $35 million needed to prevent service cuts, and far short of its per capita share of the federal funds. The remainder of the federal funds transferred to Ontario have not been allocated, and there is no indication whether they will go into child care or into other government priorities. The Ontario finance minister told the Toronto Star that the funds did not have to go to child care because they were unconditional transfers.

Toronto and other municipalities in Ontario, the level of government responsible for delivering programs, want and need a national legislative and regulatory framework to ensure that funds slated for child care go to child care.

Toronto supports Bill C-303 because it enshrines in legislation the critical elements of a Canadian system of high-quality early learning and child care services. This important piece of legislation will provide a legislative and regulatory framework to ensure that federal funding is transferred to provinces and service providers for high-quality child care and early learning programs; it will create a funding framework that requires provinces and service providers to meet criteria and standards that ensure programs are accessible, high-quality, universal, and developmental in nature; it will ensure that programs are delivered on a not-for-profit basis--and that is important, and we support it; it would require provinces and service providers to develop plans for a system of service; it will provide, through new reporting requirements, transparency and accountability for spending, which is also important to Toronto and to other municipalities in Ontario; and it will establish an advisory council to monitor and report on the operations and effectiveness of the act. We support this as well.

This is important legislation that will assist in protecting and enhancing early learning and child care in Toronto and in every province in Canada. Toronto is not alone in supporting federal child care legislation. Other municipalities, as well as provincial and local organizations, fully support the establishment of a national child care program entrenched in legislation and will be submitting letters of support to your committee.

In closing, I want to say that Toronto’s ability to succeed depends on the ability of our residents to contribute to the economic and social life of our city. Toronto’s future also depends on our ability to ensure that all children have the best chance possible to succeed. Investing in high-quality early childhood programs achieves both these goals.

In closing, I wish to urge members to support Bill C-303.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Once again, thank you, Ms. Davis, for being here.

We're going to attempt to get three rounds of questioning in. We're going to go with five minutes for each round, given the fact that we let the representatives of government go a little bit longer. Once again, a minute longer is not a whole lot.

I just have one point of clarification, Minister Dent. I know it was brought up with our previous witnesses. I see you have 40% day homes that are for profit. As well, you have the issue of aboriginals in the Northwest Territories. It was brought up earlier that this bill doesn't address funding directly for aboriginals. Was that something you noticed as well in the bill? Is that a concern of yours?

[Charles Dent]

In the Northwest Territories we don't have reserves, so the bill wouldn't have an impact on reserve populations, typically. That wouldn't be one of our issues.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much. I just wanted some clarification.

We're going to start with you, Ms. Dhalla, for five minutes. Then you'll join me in the chair...well, you won't join me, but I'll leave, and you'll be in the chair.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I'm not going to get into that.

I want to take the opportunity to thank our witnesses. I think your personal experiences from your particular provinces are most helpful, and as we can see from hearing your presentations, there are a variety of programs that each particular province and territory is putting into place to ensure that it's meeting the needs of its respective population.

I have a couple of questions, and due to our strict chair, I have to keep track of time. My questions are probably more factual, just for my own particular information.

I believe everyone here today, with the exception of Toronto, the province of Ontario, participated in the early learning and child care agreements that were brought forward by the previous Liberal government. Could everyone very quickly answer, going from left to right, how much money they would have received under the early learning and child care agreements? Secondly, how many spaces would have been created, or have been created, as a result, with the one- or two-year transitional funding that was in place?

[Jeanette MacAulay]

As I pointed out, our issue is not the need for more spaces but the sustainability of the ones we have right now. We have developed a plan to increase direct grants to centres and to increase the subsidization to parents so that wages can be increased and the administrative and structural issues of child care centres can be supported.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

So how much money would you have received in particular under—

[Jeanette MacAulay]

Over the five-year period, it was about $25 million.

[Judy Streatch]

To answer the first part of the question, it's my understanding, though I wasn't in this seat at the time, that Nova Scotia was in line to receive $137 million. So that answers the first part of your question.

I believe in the second part you wanted to know about the creation of seats. I was speaking as fast as I possibly could to get in my seven minutes, because our 10-year plan really is about more than just seats. It's more than just spaces. I think I squeaked a lot of that out in those seven minutes.

It's about the sustainability once we actually create this new 10-year plan. We have identified over 1,000 new spaces, and we will also be creating 550 new portable subsidized spaces. Those will be created in the first five years and sustained in the last five years of the plan.

[Charles Dent]

I was involved in the negotiations with the federal government at the time, and as you heard earlier, we were satisfied with the terms and the stipulations, the rules that we were going to sign on with, but we had not signed the deal, as had none of the territories because we were not satisfied with the fiscal arrangements. What we would have received through that arrangement would have been $1.3 million a year. That's about the same amount as we added to our own source funding this year to early child care.

So we thought that the per capita distribution of funds was not appropriate given our unique circumstances in the north, and that's why we hadn't signed on to the deal.

In total we're going to get, for the two years that we're getting the funding, about $1.3 million. In terms of growth of spaces, over the past two years, we've seen a growth from about 1,500 to 1,700 spaces in the Northwest Territories. By and large, all of those spaces have been in regulated family day homes.

[Janet Davis]

To give Toronto's perspective, at 2009 we would have been receiving $486.9 million. We're now receiving $176.7 million; anticipating, in 2009. We originally were going to create 5,600 spaces, the majority of them with fee subsidies, and now we're frozen at 2,000 and struggling to maintain those.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Thank you to everyone for answering.

I want to pick up on what you're saying, Ms. Davis. You're talking about the loss of funding and the resulting loss of spaces. One of the issues that I think many of us around this table, in particular I think the members on this side, have heard about is the struggle that parents are facing in not being to access day care spaces for their children. It has been noted as a significant barrier for many women wanting to enter the workforce. It has been noted as a struggle for parents who want to participate in the workforce but due to financial issues are unable to do so.

From your knowledge, the money that has been given, the taxable universal child care benefit—which breaks down to, I believe, about $2 a day—would that give parents or families wanting to put their children into day care access to a day care space in Toronto? I ask you because I think you are very well respected across the country in terms of the day care program and the investments that the city of Toronto has made historically in early learning and child care. So would parents be able to afford a day care space for $2 a day?

[Janet Davis]

Absolutely not; our child care can go up to more than $53 a day for an infant or toddler. Preschool is probably averaging $35 a day.

So it has absolutely no impact on the ability to access regulated services, either regulated home child care or licensed child care.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Ms. Davis, and thank you, Ms. Dhalla.

We're now going to move to our next questioner, and that will be Madame Barbot from the Bloc, for five minutes.

[Vivian Barbot, Bloc, Papineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

Excuse me, Vivian. Could I just interrupt for one second? I have to leave, and I just want to say thank you to our witnesses today.

This has been very good. It's shown us the challenges we have. You represent some of the issues that I have in my own home province. So I'd like to thank you for coming.

Thank you.

[Vivian Barbot, Bloc, Papineau, QC]

Thank you for coming to meet with us today in order to discuss this very important issue. I am from Quebec. I therefore view the situation differently. I would however like to share with you the objectives that led us to wanting to establish a universal program. The idea was to ensure that the greatest possible number of children be able to benefit from it.

It is important for you to know that when we finally did obtain our program, we had been working on it for more than 30 years. Parents, and especially women, were demanding this service. Before the advent of this universal program, we of course were using all sorts of means to fill this gap, so as to be able to go to work, to access the labour market, etc. These were solutions that clearly did not satisfy the majority of people and that many women could not afford, because of low-paying jobs, etc.

The purpose of this program was not only to fill this need but also to ensure that children develop in the best possible conditions. These best conditions, in our view, involve the hiring of qualified staff to offer this service, and that there be not only an educational program, but also a program taking into account the social aspect, in other words the ability of children to interact amongst each other, and taking into account the fact that the workers in this field are often women. If they are paid minimum wage, we cannot expect a high retention rate and improvements in the service offered over time. Thirty years also means that we did not achieve everything overnight. However, today, the program is operating to the satisfaction of the majority of people and is very well accepted.

I need to understand. Is the provision of a universal program a valid objective for each and everyone of you? We hear a lot of talk about money. The funny thing is that when it is war that we are talking about, money is less important. When we are talking about children, all of a sudden, it becomes an insurmountable obstacle. However, it seems that with what we are providing to the children of today who need this program, we cannot tell them to wait 10 years in order for us to find the money needed. If there were a program that allowed you to access additional funding, the idea being to provide access to the majority of people, would that not be a valid objective that everyone could rally around?

[Jeanette MacAulay]

Thank you.

A universal program from the perspective of Prince Edward Island is so far from reality that I don't know if I can dwell on that. Parents within our province can access a child care centre. The competing interests that we have are affordability and sustainability. And therein lies our challenge: the affordability, both for the province and for parents, of accessing a good-quality system, and on the other end of it, ensuring that good quality allows it to be, if there is a profit margin in the base of those that are private, or even not-for-profit, a good reinvestment opportunity.

I think that's where we need to continue to focus within our province. We need to try to continue to help low- and middle-income parents on one hand and the operators on the other, to ensure that the quality that they are providing, and that we measure, is solid.

That's about all I can say there.