Human Resources Committee on May 1st, 2007

[Jody Dallaire]

Our position is that we need a range of programs. We need income supports for families and we also need a range of quality child care programs with clear accountability measures to make sure that each dollar invested actually goes to the right place to make spaces affordable, quality, and accessible.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Ruby Dhalla]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to Mr. Lessard, for three minutes, please.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question is addressed to each and every one of you, perhaps more specifically to the Association of Canada...

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Ruby Dhalla]

I'm sorry, Mr. Lessard, I have to let Mr. Brown go for three minutes, then I'll come back to you. My apologies.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Since he did not speak, I thought he could have six minutes.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

I'll have to get my points in quickly. I didn't realize there were just three minutes.

To start, someone mentioned there were no new child spaces created since the government took office. I'd note that recorded so far in Nova Scotia there are 1,550; in Saskatchewan, 500; in Manitoba, 500. The recent Ontario budget committed 15,000 spaces, and obviously there are going to be more provincial budgets coming out. Those are the data in four provinces. It's exciting to see some progress happening.

I'd note that in my native province of Ontario the government there was given $97.5 million from the Government of Canada--for those who might be confused about governments. The Government of Ontario chose to spend only $25 million because they believed that was enough in terms of the needs of child care.

So I have some concerns about assuring that child care dollars are spent...and I worry that this bill may actually freeze child care money, because we are going to have provinces that don't support terms of universality. For example, in Quebec, we understand, their model is about 50%. Ms. Savoie said 54% should be the benchmark. So I do have some concerns about that.

A larger concern with the bill is that it sees the solution as requiring no new resources. That's something that I think some of the people making suggestions today would have concerns with.

Where the problem started in Canada, and I think most of us would agree, was back in 1993, when many Canadians believed there was an issue of child care. The Liberal Party made a platform commitment, and then they cut child care funding. They cut social transfers to the provinces by $25 billion. My concern with no new funding is, what happens if we see the Liberal Party elected again and they look for ways, as they did in 1993, to take away from child care? Could they use this act to limit child care funding?

The question I want to get out is whether you agree that no new funding...as Ms. Savoie has outlined and as seems to be supported by the Liberal Party, and certainly the premier, who's searched for opportunities in Ontario to cut funding for child care. Do you agree with the sentiment that no new funding is required?

I'm excited about the mood we've had in Ottawa of late, where the Conservatives have tripled funding for child care--tripled in terms of what the Liberals actually promised--and that's a fact, $5.6 billion.

Are you in favour of the Conservative model of increasing funds in child care or are you in favour of the status quo argument, which is to say no new funding is available, let's forget about the Conservative course to triple it, as we have?

[Shellie Bird]

I think there's some confusion. What has happened is that under the bilateral agreement between Ontario and the federal government, the provincial government had accepted the quad principles: quality, universal, affordable, and developmental. They were using their funding under that agreement to build 25,000 spaces. When the Conservative government came to power and cancelled those agreements, and cancelled the funding with them, they were able to build only 15,000 spaces with that money that had come from the child care agreement.

So none of the money you're talking about under the space creation initiative has created any spaces in Ontario, because no money has come to the Province of Ontario under this new initiative—

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

The $97.5 million was just released. I appreciate your recognizing—

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Ruby Dhalla]

Mr. Brown, let the witness finish, please.

[Shellie Bird]

The $97 million is the end of the funding under the provincial child care agreement. That's the end of the funding, that's not the new funding.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Ruby Dhalla]

I'm going to turn it over to Mr. Lessard, for three minutes, please.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I will say very briefly that there is a cost involved and that it is society’s choice. We make the choice, yes or no, and that costs something. In Quebec, it costs $1.5 billion a year. Relatively speaking, in Canada, we can already estimate what it is going to cost. It is a choice, like the one made to dedicate $17.5 billion to military equipment. This is a choice that was made without any consultation, without any debate like the one we are having right now about children. It is a special choice, therefore.

My question is addressed to each of you, but perhaps more particularly to the Canadian Union of Public Employees and the Child Care Advocacy Association of Canada. I have perused your briefs, and they do not look to me to be complete enough. This comment is not directed only at you, though. As far as the development of private businesses is concerned, one aspect of the bill gives me some sense of security, and it is the fact that the door has been closed on the later development of private day care centres.

In Quebec, there is a moratorium on private day care centres. Those that already exist are also subject to rules of quality, accessibility and universality. They are highly controlled. When the legislation was amended, it was noted that the for-profit day care organizations were watching very closely. As soon as the Quebec government amended the act last year, in two locations, Sherbrooke and Montreal’s South Shore, two large American organizations were watching like hawks. Do you consider that this bill has what it takes to guarantee our safety regarding commercialization of the system? If not, what is this bill lacking?

[Jamie Kass]

I do think we have what we need in this bill to assure that if we create a universally accessible system, it won't be in the for-profit sector. This is really important, because I think, with this bill, over the years we will see new funding coming into the system in terms of creating universality and that it won't be in the for-profit sector.

I want to underscore that for many of us who have worked in pushing for this kind of program for most of our working lives, to see a national child care program recognizing Quebec's distinct nature, if we see it come about in the for-profit sector, we would not want it.

When you look at what happened in Australia, you see that 70% of their system now is operated by big commercial child care, and we've seen the interest already coming in from U.S. for-profits and some Canadian homegrown for-profit organizations coming in. What they're interested in is the public funding. And they won't operate in rural areas; they won't open their premises to children with diverse needs and inclusive needs; they won't be in aboriginal communities. They'll probably be in very wealthy areas where they then have large amounts of public funding coming into those programs.

So I really caution you all that ensuring that it's a non-profit delivery is really critical.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Ruby Dhalla]

You have 30 seconds, please.

[Jody Dallaire]

I would like to add that, in the province of New Brunswick, where I am from, a day care organization contacted our provincial government because the latter wants to develop a long-term child care services plan. The for-profit organizations are therefore watching very closely. I wish to say that we also believe that the bill deals with these concerns and that it will prevent an invasion of the market by the day care organizations. Furthermore, it will mean that the public money invested in future to set up a universal system will go to the public through the creation of places for everyone.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Ruby Dhalla]

Thank you.

Ms. Chow, for three minutes, please.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Madam Chair, I have letters from parents from Victoria, Vancouver, Halifax, Toronto, London, Prince Rupert, Kingston, Nanaimo, Fergus, Fort St. John, Calgary, and Duncan. I just want to make sure that it is in your record and people will know that we are getting a lot of letters in support of it.

I'm wondering if any of you have been around long enough to recall that in the late 1980s or early 1990s there was a movement to draft a national child care act by the then Prime Minister, who was Brian Mulroney. Would any of you recall the details of that? We may not have enough time for that.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Ruby Dhalla]

Could we keep it to a minute, please, because the government has one more opportunity to ask a question. We have a minute, if you want to answer quickly.

[Jamie Kass]

Some of us were certainly around to work on that act. I'm sure we can find it in the filing cabinet, with all the other reports.

I think this is a well-crafted act overall. I think we need to address the aboriginal issues and we want to ensure that it's inclusive of family child care, but I actually think the basis of the act is very good.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Ruby Dhalla]

Mr. Chong can speak for three quick minutes, and then we'll wrap up the meeting.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I will briefly reiterate my concerns about this bill, which I highlighted earlier.

It's not inconceivable that there could be a new government in Quebec. It's a minority government--my wife's family is from Quebec--and the point is that it's not inconceivable that a future government in Quebec could radically alter the delivery of their child care system. As it's presently structured, this act would do nothing to prevent that. In other words you're creating a situation that ties into what Peter Dinsdale mentioned: you don't have a so-called national program that applies to all Canadians. That, for me, is a big problem. Programs that are designed by the federal government, I believe--

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Ruby Dhalla]

Mr. Chong, did you have a question? We only have thirty seconds left.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I'll get my point in. I don't think there's a question there. I want to make a comment, as well.

Further to what Mr. Brown has said, we've allocated $5.6 billion to Canadian families. I think the question really is--and I know you're shaking your head--about the allocation of that money. I think your contention is that it shouldn't be allocated amongst all families equally, that it should be specifically targeted toward a certain subset of families. I think what we're trying to say is that we want to make sure everybody gets treated equally, regardless of their choice.

Obviously we are agreeing to disagree on some of those things. The fact of the matter is that there is three times more money going to Canadian families now than there was under the Liberal government.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Ruby Dhalla]

Merci beaucoup.

There are times when I wish I wasn't chair, but since I am and I have to be neutral, I want to thank all of the witnesses on behalf of all MPs and committee members. Your information was most valuable.

We're going to call the meeting to a close. We have votes in the House.

Thank you. This meeting is adjourned.