Human Resources Committee on May 3rd, 2007

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Mr. Chair, maybe this is an occupational hazard -- I would really like to know whom this gentleman is representing. He has passed around some material, and I am trying to find the answer to the question that he does not want to answer. One passage describes what they are advocating. Maybe it will put us on the scent. It says:

Marriage is an organic, pre-political institution that emerges spontaneously from society. People of the opposite sex are naturally attracted to each other, couple with each other, co-create children and raise those children. The little society of the family replenishes and sustains itself.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to Ms. Chow for five minutes, please.

[Beverley Smith]

It's Beverley Smith. When you have a minute, I'd like to talk.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Okay. We'll see if someone will ask you a question.

Go ahead, Ms. Chow.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

I actually want to come back to Sara, because she was about to answer the question. Imagine your neighbour, a single mother, back on welfare, as you said, maybe in Ontario. There's a national child benefit, unfortunately--

[Sara Landriault]

The national child benefit, the universal child care benefit?

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

--and it's the one close to about $3,400, from both the benefit and the supplement. Because there is provincial clawback on the single mom on welfare who gets very little--

[Sara Landriault]

For their child tax benefit, not the universal one, the $100 a month thing.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

That's right, not the UCCB. If you add that with welfare, it's very low. Let's say if you have two children, as I was saying, with the new child benefit program, the $310 only gives to parents who earn more than $20,000, so obviously the single mom on welfare won't get that $310 child tax benefit, the new one. Neither would she, because she's not working, get the worker's income credit, the new WITB--there it is, I keep remembering. She won't get that, either.

So she has a really terrible choice. She can stay home and live in poverty, and by the time she's finished paying rent, there might not be enough money for food for her kids, so she may end up relying on a food bank. We know that 40% of the people who use food banks are kids, in fact.

Let's say she's a nurse. She could go back to work, but she's at home right now, with her kids, on welfare.

[Sara Landriault]

She's at home right now. Her full choice is to be at home, on welfare, starving.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

There are two kids, let's say. She's a nurse. She can go and work, but who's going to take care of her two kids? So she's stuck in a cycle of poverty and living on welfare. She wants to go to work--

[Sara Landriault]

No, that's the other neighbour. We're talking about the welfare one.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

In that instance, Sara, what would she do? She'd probably have her kids in a long waiting list for child care and she may not get it.

[Sara Landriault]

Ms. Chow, when you first brought it up, you said there were two neighbours.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

So in those instances, what would she do?

[Sara Landriault]

You said there are two neighbours. You've somehow merged them both into one. We're talking about one who wants to go to work, who wants day care; the other side is on welfare, has decided that her work is at home with her kids. Yes, maybe she was a nurse, maybe she wasn't. Maybe this side was a nurse, who knows?

Under this bill, the lady who wants to go to work and wants to go out and get paid for it, has an option under this bill. I'm thrilled for her; really, I am. Honestly, I am. Then you have a lady on welfare, with two kids, who does not have an option, except maybe to go to Ontario Early Years or other provinces', which I love--I used it myself, I don't want it to go away--to find a pamphlet that tells her how important milk is, but where is that milk coming from?

As you said, rent in Ontario is $1,200 easily. There are two kids; let's throw them in a one-bedroom apartment for $800 or $900 a month. She's still at home. She's managing to do what she can, begging and borrowing and favours and everything, to keep her kids because she has an honest belief...and I have it myself. The only difference between her and me is our bank accounts. We are both good parents. Some parents suck, but it goes both ways. Some day care workers suck too. It's a natural instinct in that person. It has nothing to do with an overall image of day care or parents at home.

On this side you have the mom, on welfare too, ready to go to day care. I know you said $10,000 before, but in Ontario Mary Anne Chambers said it's $18,000 a year to create a day care space. With two kids, it's costing $36,000 a year for her to go to day care--to put her two kids in day care, not her.

This side is getting $11,000 plus. All that comes to $15,000 or $16,000 a year. I'm not saying give her the $36,000, but don't you think bringing her up to a little above the poverty level might help her buy that milk, rather than running to--

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Yes, absolutely.

[Sara Landriault]

Yes. But this bill is good for this, bad for that--

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

So in this case, would you actually support two things? One is to help that single mother on welfare who chooses to stay home--

[Sara Landriault]

Yes, out of my own pocket, happily.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

--and the second is to up the national child benefit so that, rather than $3,400, she would get $4,000, so there would be a bit more money on the child benefit side so she wouldn't have to worry about having to go to the food bank for food?

[Sara Landriault]

It's not the concept I would agree on, though.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Then on the nurse's side, there should be affordable child care for her. So it's a win-win situation for both.

[Sara Landriault]

Yes, both private and at home, but--

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's all the time we have.