Human Resources Committee on May 10th, 2007

[Gary Merasty, Liberal, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

No.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

No? You're saying it's okay?

[Gary Merasty, Liberal, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

No, it's okay the way it is.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

So it's okay to put them the way they are right now.

[Gary Merasty, Liberal, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Yes.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Okay, I just wanted to clarify that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

Ms. Yelich.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

I don't understand how we don't—Are the definitions well defined? Legally, are we doing something that's within our purview?

When I looked and listened to the presentation by the representative the other day, he had a six-QUAD suggestion or an action plan for early learning and child care. This person didn't really agree even with the four. He has six because he wants to include culture.

I can't see how we can be voting for something that is out of our purview. I think we need legal advice. I'm sure there are people who can tell us what we are voting for, because we do not know what we're voting for.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Ms. Yelich, thank you very much.

Mr. Lessard, followed by Ms. Dhalla.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Mr. Chairman, dealing with this bill is clearly one of our prerogatives. I agree with Ms. Yelich and Mr. Lake, who say that we need to ensure that the wording of the bill reflects reality, that is to say, the real powers these communities have. Where does the power lie? That is something we need to know. We have done our homework and tried to determine whether the wording used so far by the Liberals, New Democrats and Conservatives accurately reflects reality. We thought it did. Today, a new concept, one that is familiar to me, is being put forward. There are indeed band governments, but are those governments recognized by nations as governments per se in terms of the powers we want to give them?

I cannot answer that question properly today, Mr. Chairman. Should we accept the subamendment? That's another matter. There are two possibilities. We can check the facts between two stages of the process. We are practically at the final stage here. The next step is the report stage, followed by the study in the Senate. Conservatives and Liberals are both represented in the Senate, and this may be the kind of amendment that could be moved there. Can we include at this time a concept on which we difficulty reaching an appropriate judgment? That is something we should be very careful about. Is there actually a band government? That is the question.

If I understand correctly, Mr. Merasty seems to be saying there isn't. Bands have executive authority, but there is not necessarily a band government per se. There is a band council, but that's different.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

We should first ask the department.

Mr. Chair.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I invite our colleague to refrain from moving her sub-amendment today and to move it at another stage, if necessary, so that we can do the necessary research in the meantime.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Once again, I would remind the members that we need unanimous consent to remove or to withdraw the amendment.

We're going to move to Ms. Dhalla, followed by Ms. Yelich.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

The amendment I put forward was done in consultation with the stakeholders within the first nation and aboriginal community, and there were legal experts who looked at the particular amendment to ensure that it was within the purview of the bill.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Mr. Chairman, perhaps I did not make myself clear. I was talking about Ms. Chow's sub-amendment and not the amendment. We did the necessary checking in the case of the amendments, and there was no problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Go ahead. Continue, Ms. Dhalla. Thank you.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Regarding the subamendment that was brought forward by Ms. Chow, I have just been informed that this was also brought forward by the AFN and the B.C. aboriginal association in regard to the band government. The AFN, just a few hours ago I believe, took another look at the bill, and they're the ones who have introduced the term “band government”.

For both the subamendment and the amendment itself, I think for any type of legislation, whether we're reviewing it or analyzing it and referring it back to the House, it's extremely important that it be reflective of our country. And I think it's imperative that it include the aboriginal people—first nations, Inuit, and Métis—and that we ensure that it be inclusive in nature and not exclusive.

I know all of us here, as we were reviewing Bill C-303, had very different ideas of how child care and early learning would be best delivered in the country. I respect that completely.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

We don't need a lecture.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Hold on a second.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

It's not a lecture.

I respect that completely, but in terms of the amendment we're looking at today, I think it would be really unfortunate for any member on this particular committee not to support our aboriginal people and to have them excluded. I think we must have them included, regardless of how we feel about this particular bill.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

I will remind the members that it is now approaching a quarter to five, and we are still on the first subamendment of the first amendment of the first clause.

Anyway, Ms. Yelich, followed by Mr. Lake.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

Mr. Chair, this has absolutely nothing to do with those accusations. That's why we are asking more about this. Is it in the best interests of the aboriginal people?

So can our experts tell us? What does this do? What do these clauses do for the aboriginal people? Do they restrict them, as some experts have said, or do they not? What do these amendments mean to you? What does the bill do for the aboriginal people?

[Christian Beaulieu, Senior Counsel and Team Leader, Legal Services, Information Management and Social Programs Groups, Department of Human Resources and Social Development]

First of all, you all know me. I'll refer you to the opening statement that my colleague Mark McCombs made two weeks ago. I cannot advise you. That being said, I can assist.

The limit of my assistance today would be that I would bring you to clause 3, and if the amendment were to be introduced in the bill, clause 3 would read simply as follows: “The purpose of this Act is to establish criteria and conditions that must be met before a child care transfer payment may be made in support of the early learning and child care program of a province or territory or aboriginal peoples' organization.”

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

I think we will abstain on absence of clear information.

We've got to take Ms. Dhalla's word that she spoke with all these bands, first nations, aboriginals, in the last 24 hours, when this bill has been on the table for quite a while. It took a long time for these amendments to come forward. We're dealing with another government, so in the absence of any really clear arguments on this, I think we'd better abstain.