Human Resources Committee on June 7th, 2007

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Is it fair to say, though, that while Ford and Bacardi and Wal-Mart and Safeway were getting funding under the old Liberal program, there were some good organizations that weren't getting funding? Just a yes or no.

[Janice Charette]

I'm not suggesting that those other companies are not good organizations.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

I was quite surprised, as an MP, when I was asked to give input on this program. I never expected a phone call to pick winners and losers in a program. I meet folks all the time from my riding who come from places all around the world where political corruption abounds. They come here to get away from that political corruption, and it just seemed to me that when I hear about a program where MPs pick winners and losers like this, it just seems to lend itself very much to potential for corruption. It does. I think these changes are long overdue, where we need to have objective criteria, where the MPs aren't in the mix in terms of picking this. Can you imagine if we allowed the MPs to pick winners and losers in taxation casework or immigration casework or pension-related casework? I just can't imagine; I wouldn't want that kind of input. To have that kind of input here just doesn't seem consistent with the way we operate in this country.

I'm curious, when an organization, for example, under the old program was making a case for the quality of their jobs, would they make their case to the department or to the MP directly?

[Janice Charette]

I think the applicant would have submitted an application form under the summer career placement and the decisions were made on a combination of the information that was submitted through that application as well as local input from the members of Parliament.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

So they could appeal to their MP, and then when the MP substituted his or her own organization for one the department had proposed, would the MP send out a rejection letter to that organization that was rejected to state the reason for it?

[Janice Charette]

The department is responsible for the administration of the program, so the decisions with respect to who was receiving funding and who was not were decisions that were taken, ultimately, by the department.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Were the criteria that the MPs applied when they rejected an organization that had been previously proposed by the department made public under the old program?

[Janice Charette]

It was not made public by the department.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

So the organizations wouldn't have had a letter from the department saying that their MP had actually overruled the department to tell them to reject them for funding. That wouldn't be stated in the letter in the old Liberal program?

[Janice Charette]

No, Mr. Lake, that would not.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Okay. I just wanted some clarification.

Were the criteria, for example, in Trinity—Spadina the same when Tony Ianno was the MP versus when Ms. Chow was the MP? Would you have had confidence that Mr. Ianno and Ms. Chow were applying the same criteria in their decision-making?

[Janice Charette]

I could tell you that the department would have applied the same criteria. How the members of Parliament were acting I think is really not a question that's appropriate for me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much, and thank you, Mr. Lake.

I want to thank the department officials once again for making time to be here.

Did you want to thank them as well?

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I want to thank the officials. I think the officials have provided us with great clarity today, as much as they are under constrained circumstances.

I want to introduce a motion that I understand from the clerk is in order. I wonder, could I pass that out, or read it? What's the best way?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Sure. We will pass that out.

Can we let the department officials go at this point?

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Yes. It's just that I understand that the motion needs to be done while we're on the study of--

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Oh, most definitely. While we're still on the study, we'll entertain the motion

We'll release the witnesses. We thank you for being here.

Ms. Dhalla.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

On a point of clarification on what Mr. Lake was saying earlier, the lists in the past were based on the advice of HRSDC. I know, as a parliamentarian, when I received the list I basically went back to HRSDC and said we would follow whatever the recommendations were. As MPs, we were in no way engaged in determining who would be eligible and who wouldn't be eligible for funding.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Well, I--

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We're into some debate here, but go ahead, Mr. Silva.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I want to know if the new Conservative policy is that members of Parliament aren't supposed to have any input in programs. If that is the case, then why bother coming to Parliament? Why bother coming here? There's no point, then.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Okay, thanks.

Mr. Savage has a motion on the table.

Would you like to read that, sir, so we can begin some debate while we're still within the summer jobs program?

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I move that the Department of Human Resources and Social Development be ordered to provide the clerk, no later than June 12, 2007, a list of organizations that were granted funding along with those that were denied funding under the summer career placement program in 2006 and the Canada summerjobs program for 2007; the amount of funding distributed by the summer career placement program for 2006 and the Canada summer jobs program for 2007; and that this information be provided on a riding-by-riding basis.

Mr. Chair, if I could speak to this....

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Yes, go ahead.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

This arises out of a significant concern I had from an original motion brought forward on May 17 requesting this information by June 1. Last Thursday the chair told us we would have that information on Friday. It came in late on the day it was due and basically indicated that with one small exception this information couldn't be provided.

I want to refer people.... If you would just pull out your Marleau and Montpetit, on page 864 it says—