Human Resources Committee on April 29th, 2008

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to start by welcoming the minister as well as the officials who are accompanying him. We will get straight to the point, since we have a very limited amount of time.

Mr. Minister, the Expert Panel on Older Workers submitted its report in February, I believe. The report followed a series of consultations that the panel conducted more or less across the country. In Quebec, groups specifically emphasized the need to implement a program like the POWA to assist older workers.

Have you familiarized yourself with this report? What is your position on it? Do you plan to submit a copy to the committee so that we can familiarize ourselves with it and continue our work?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chairman, yes, we are. We have received the report. We're analyzing it now, and we will be releasing it in due course. This work is important. I know you're very interested in the situation for older workers in this country, and we'll be responding to that report in due course. Certainly this committee will have the chance to look at it.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Since the POWA was abolished in 1997 and, for my part, for the past four years that I have been here, we have been calling for this program to be re-established. The project has been delayed several times, despite your political party having committed to it.

As minister, do you plan to re-establish the Program for Older Worker Adjustment? I am distinguishing it from the TIOW, which is a training program for those who can be reclassified. I am referring to workers who cannot be reclassified.

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Our approach is to try to find a way to give older workers the opportunity to retrain if they possibly can. There are a couple of factors. Given that many older workers do want to retrain, and that people are generally living longer than they used to and our social programs don't necessarily reflect that fact, we think it's important to give people that option. The labour market is providing more and more opportunities for them--and I laid out some of those numbers in my remarks.

So my answer is that we are going to continue to put our emphasis and our resources into helping retrain older workers as much as we can.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Mr. Minister, you know as well as I do that some people cannot be retrained. Those are the people we are talking about, and you know that. You always talk about a program for those people who want to and can be retrained. I'm talking about those people who cannot, Mr. Minister. I will ask you the question again. Do you plan to provide support for these people?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

I would point out that there are already supports in place for older workers who are in that position. If it's somebody who's suffered a disability, we have supports for them. We have the ability for people to draw Canada Pension Plan early, at age 60. We also have put in place the community development trust, which will help people in extraordinary situations in communities where there aren't options to be creative and offer new ideas, as determined by the province. And obviously the provinces, in some cases, make the decision to step in and provide income support for people who are older.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you for being brief. I don't think we will agree on that. You know what I am talking about and once again you are passing the burden on to the provinces. That is regrettable, but we will have an opportunity to come back to that.

Now let's talk about the new agency that will manage the Employment Insurance Account. You have provided some clarification on that. You plan to maintain the Employment Insurance Commission and create an agency. The commission will ensure that benefits are paid in accordance with decisions made by the minister and will provide sound management. As for the agency, it will look after establishing premiums.

What troubles me a great deal is the clarification that you made when you said the agency's mandate will involve holding and investing any excess EI premiums from a given year until they are used to reduce premium rates in subsequent years.

Mr. Minister, don't you feel that it is irresponsible to say ahead of time that the employment insurance system will not be improved and that the board's only responsibility will be to manage premiums in order to reduce them? Can you clarify that for us? That statement is quite unsettling.

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Lessard, actually the most important job that the Canada Employment Insurance Financing Board will have is to ensure that those premiums are used only for what they were intended, which is to provide benefits for employees. That's the most important job that the new financing board will have. This is not an insubstantial job. Remember that $14 billion a year passes through there. That money has to be handled correctly, and ultimately workers and employers have to have the confidence that it's going for uses that it was originally intended for.

Remember that a lot of people have lost faith in the system to some degree, because in the past well over $50 billion went through there and was utilized for things that had nothing to do with supplying benefits for workers.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Mr. Minister, I am happy to hear you say that $55 billion were utilized for other things. I will come back to that.

You yourself made a distinction between the mandate of the commission and the mandate of the board. But your answer about the board deals with the commission's mandate. I will give you an opportunity to check your notes, because your answer is not consistent with them.

I want to go back to the $54 billion that were used for other purposes. When the Bloc Québécois introduced Bill C-280 on repatriating the surpluses that had been diverted from the account, which today are at $54 billion, your party's House leader, Mr. Van Loan, who was a member of the committee, proposed returning that $54 billion to the account. That amount, however, is not in the present budget.

Do you intend to honour the committee's unanimous recommendation? Will you also respect the motion that had been presented by Mr. Van Loan to amend Bill C-280?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Minister, that's all the time we have, but I'll let you answer this question before we move on to the next round.

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Obviously the $54 billion has been spent. To bring it back would require poking a $54 billion hole in the budget, which would obviously not be acceptable to many people.

I think our job is to fix the problem going forward. We can't do anything about what has occurred in the past. We can fix the problem going forward. I think we have made a very good start at that—a $2 billion cash reserve and ensuring that no government ever again in the future can take money away from workers and from employers who put that money into the fund with the understanding that it would be used to provide benefits for workers. I think that's the most important thing we can do, and I think that's what we're really doing with this new fund.

So far we've received tremendous support from groups that represent workers across the country, including unions, and of course from small business. They are very excited that this may lead ultimately to lower premiums.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Minister.

We're now going to go to Mr. Martin, for seven minutes, sir.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you very much.

It's good to see you again.

I appreciate the focus in the report this morning on the labour market approach to lifting people out of difficult times. However, the information I have so far is that Statistics Canada—reporting sometime this week, I think Thursday—is saying that what we're looking at is a seriousness of income inequality in Canada. We're failing a new generation of Canadian-born workers and immigrants, aged 18 to 34, who are not only not getting ahead but are falling further behind.

In an economic boom, as talk of a recession dominates, we see the richest 5% accumulating dramatically more wealth, incomes of most Canadians stagnating more than in incomes for people in any country in the developing world, and the poorest actually falling further behind because of that reality. This is very disturbing. Canadian-born youngest male adults and immigrants 18 to 34, according to the stats, are the prime victims of a 25-year trend of income inequality. You know this, because it was reported in your performance report of last year.

What steps are you taking to correct this, and how important is this income inequality to you?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

There are, I think, a couple of issues with respect to incomes. One is inequality and the other is whether or not people on the low end are seeing any increase overall in their standard of living. I think both of them are important.

I guess I would say this: we are investing very heavily when it comes to training that will help people on the low end take advantage of the hot labour market. There is no question that there is concern in the economy right now. Some sectors are being adversely affected. But over the long run, because of demographics, I think a lot of people who are on the low end of the income scale will have opportunities.

In fact, our information shows that Canada is one of the most upwardly mobile countries in the world in terms of people who have a lower standard of living being able to rise up. That said, there is always a portion of the population that really struggles on the low end. My department has suggested that about 650,000 people in the country fit that description. Some of these people are mentally ill. Certainly there are homelessness issues, of course, and addiction issues.

I look forward to this committee producing a report on homelessness and poverty to help guide us on where we should go in the future to address some of those problems.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Let me take this income inequality a step further to indicate to you what's apparently going to show up on Thursday.

The gap is growing. We are seeing the rich, the top 5%, driving up shelter prices beyond the reach of an increasing number of people in the country. It says in The Toronto Star that “economists have been buried by reports from Statistics Canada...showing income inequality to be on the rise”. That isn't a surprise. What is a surprise is the analysis connecting the dots between incomes and shelter costs. More and more people will not have housing or adequate housing. This takes it even further, beyond a moral imperative to act. It says this situation may not be sustainable.

From what I can see, there is no new money. You've mentioned some money for housing in your report. But we can't find any new money, and we can't see any new housing starts. We don't see anything coming directly out of the federal government, certainly not in my community. I think the same is true in communities across the country. We need new housing starts, and this income inequality is going to make the problem even worse.

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

There's a lot in that. I would say this. We are spending about $2.7 billion this year on affordable housing and homelessness, which is the highest amount ever. During the last two years we have spent more than ever before on these problems.

We understand that there are many people who are still struggling to find affordable housing. It's true that even as we experience general prosperity it's becoming more and more difficult for many people to realize the dream of owning a home. But this is a very complicated issue.

Remember, too, that the top 10% of income earners pay about 50% of the income taxes in this country. You have to tax people, and the expectation is that people on the high end should pay more in tax. But there's a fine line. If you tax them too heavily, they'll leave the country, because they're mobile. These are the very people who create jobs and are the solution for many people who want to make their way up the income scale. In losing people on the high end, you deny a lot of people that opportunity. So it is a fine line, and I think we need to be cautious about it.

We are concerned about people on the low end. That's why former Senator Kirby's Mental Health Commission and the $110 million for demonstration projects are really important. I think it's one of the big ways to address the problem of poverty and homelessness and to find ways to help people who are mentally ill and deeply addicted. But it's complicated.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

I've travelled the country over the last couple of years, talking to groups and looking at poverty in the neighbourhoods of our major cities. One of the groups that show up most often is the aboriginal people. According to Stats Canada, aboriginal people make up the fastest growing demographic in Canada. I see programs in my own community that are underfunded and could be helpful in getting those young people into preschool and readiness programs, like Head Start. These programs could be working with families. Yet they're out there trying to run their programs on the proceeds of bake sales and car washes. We have Indian friendship centres, we have Head Start, we have a number of other excellent programs run by aboriginal people themselves. All of them, though, receive minuscule funding.

You talk about your colleague Minister Strahl. But they're not seeing any commitment to what is both a huge challenge and a wonderful opportunity for Canadians—to take advantage of this new, exciting group of people who are coming on stream and could be the future for us.

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Everyone agrees that we have to find a way to make sure aboriginal Canadians play a more important role, that they can join the mainstream of society in this country. We're already seeing this to some degree. Today our workforce has a much higher participation rate for aboriginals off-reserve than in the past. That's because the economy is hot. We've taken some steps to take advantage of that, like the aboriginal skills employment program. In general, this government's philosophy is to fund things that we know work. That's why we doubled the size of ASEP. It works really well.

When it comes to some of the other training initiatives—and I'll speak about these because I'm familiar with them—we are concerned that they haven't worked as well as they could have. We owe it to taxpayers to make sure they work, and we owe it to vulnerable aboriginal people to make sure they work better than they do. So we are taking a hard, fundamental look at things like the aboriginal human resources development agreements. There are hundreds of these across this country, and we want to make sure they serve aboriginals better than they have up till now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're out of time. Now we're going to move to the last individual of this round.

Ms. Yelich, you have seven minutes.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

Thank you. I will be sharing my time with Jacques.

I want to congratulate the minister on his French. I am trying to learn French, and I'm still really shy. I hear him speak it so well, and we don't see Mr. Lessard miss a beat there. It was very good, and I congratulate you.

I could pick up on that, because Saskatchewan, of course, is an example that can be used. We definitely do have a growing population of aboriginals. A lot of the programs you have introduced are certainly going to be excellent. I'm sure that all of the aboriginal women who have children under the age of six appreciate the $100 for child care.

I think that some of the job training, particularly in the mining, like ASEP, and some of the programs--the labour market agreements--have been excellent. We would like to see some of the groups that sometimes aren't participating in the workforce, such as the women, the aboriginals, and some of our new immigrants.

I'm wondering if you would like to expand on that, on some of the things you see for Saskatchewan, and some of the programs that you particularly cite as being really good for a booming province like we have.

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

First of all, merci. I appreciate the compliment on my French, but I don't know that it's quite that good.

Secondly, Saskatchewan really is a good example of how we can work better with the aboriginal community. On the one hand, you have a booming economy, a very exciting economy. It's an economy where, to a large degree, jobs are being created in remote rural areas. Obviously you've got big mining operations in the north, companies like Cameco and others. On the other hand, you have a very large aboriginal population that really has not enjoyed the fruits of that boom to the degree it could. I see that as a terrific opportunity. That's where programs like ASEP are so important.

In fact, we just announced a number of new ASEP projects in northern Saskatchewan, and the importance of these can't be overstated. I've met a number of people who've been through these programs. It's no exaggeration to say that these programs are life changing for the people who get that kind of support.

I think an important thing for this committee to note is that one of the reasons for that success is that when companies go into this program, they, along with the federal government, work with aboriginal people toward getting them the training for very particular jobs that have wages attached to them, so they know that when they graduate they will actually step into those jobs. In stepping into those jobs--these are typically very well-paying jobs--they'll be able to support themselves and their families and really, in many cases, be role models in their communities.

This is a program that works well, and I think we need to try to replicate some of the lessons from that and from some of the other aboriginal programming, but really, a lot of our programming in general. I would welcome this committee's views and insights on that when it comes to your report on poverty.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, thank you for coming today.

Given the demographic changes in Canada, we will be facing a new reality in the future. There will be more seniors than there have ever been in the past. Can you tell members of this committee what the government is doing to provide programs that will support our seniors? For example, what is the government doing for people receiving the Guaranteed Income Supplement or in the area of exemptions for income earned? Can you tell us about the New Horizons Program and what the benefits of it are?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Mr. Gourde.

The fact is that we've made some important changes when it comes to seniors. We are not only reducing all kinds of taxes, like the GST, so they have more money in their pockets, and reducing income tax for people at the low end, but we are improving, by the way, the GIS. It is up 7% over the two years, over and above cost of living increases.

The new exemption is also really important. Many seniors want to work. They're vital. They're in good health. The new exemption we put in the budget would mean that they could earn up to $3,500 without it affecting their benefits. That's important, and not just in areas where labour markets are hot. Many seniors want to work and supplement their incomes and stay vital. So I think it's also an investment in the good health of seniors.

When it comes to New Horizons, we've added funding, so there's money available--I talked about this in my remarks--to make the public in general and other seniors aware of the problem of elder abuse. Senator LeBreton has taken the lead on this. I think this is a very important issue. Somebody has characterized it as being similar to the taboo in the past around the issue of spousal abuse. It was dragged out of the closet. Now we're doing the same with elder abuse. Many times this takes the form of financial abuse. Often it's within families, sad to say. So I think this is an important initiative that will help make this issue public and will protect seniors and make their lives better.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Mr. Minister, on page 4, you talk about matching supply and demand in the labour market. According to the outlook for the Canadian labour market, about 5.5 million job openings are expected for 2006 to 2015. Emploi-Québec has confirmed that by 2011, 700,000 jobs could be vacant in Quebec.

How is the government ensuring that the skills of Canadian workers will be sufficient to meet the labour market's requirements? How much has the government invested in skills training under the labour market agreements, and what provinces have signed these agreements?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

One of the most important things I think we can do is make sure people understand that we see the potential in them to make these changes. In Quebec, I note, 40% of the successful job seekers in the past year have been people over the age of 55. We have to make sure we arm people with the skills and really, in many cases, the confidence to make these changes.

The targeted initiative for older workers has been quite helpful that way. I've received a number of reports from people who've gone through the program, and they've been very excited about what it has meant in terms of, again, giving them the confidence to take on that training and to get a new job.

There is other important programming we have in place. There's already an existing program through labour market development agreements to provide Employment Insurance Act, part II, training. There's $2 billion that provides workers with training to help them transition from one job to another.

We've put in place new labour market agreements that will allow people who've never been in the workforce, whether it's young people, recent immigrants, or aboriginals, to get the skills they need to move, in many cases, off social assistance or some kind of support into the workforce. To me, that's exciting. We've put in place the aboriginal skills and employment partnership. There's a lot of programming already in place to provide that kind of support. Ultimately, even the community development trust will help give provinces and local communities the flexibility to do what they need to do so they can help people make the transition from sectors that are struggling--sectors, frankly, like forestry--into others that are doing better.

There are a number of things in place, but we're not going to rest on that. The other thing, of course, is that we have made important changes to student financial assistance. Young people who thought post-secondary education was just a dream and that they could never do it now actually have the option of getting into school--tech school, university, or college--and ultimately getting a job. And away they go.