Human Resources Committee on May 13th, 2009

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

It gives me great pleasure to welcome all the participants.

I am going to start with you, Betty. At the end of your presentation, you were giving some figures with regard to the amount the federal government has spent in Laval. To the extent that the study of the federal contribution to reducing poverty is the subject of today's discussion, could you give us those figures again and tell us why they're lacking?

[Betty McLeod]

Okay. The amount granted to Laval for the homeless program, for the organization, was something like—I could be wrong—$937,000 or $900,000. I don't have the exact amount; I have it at work.

There are more than 80 French-speaking charitable organizations in Laval. There is one, AGAPE, that handles the immigration, the refugees, and the needy in regard to those speaking English. That $900,000 divided by 80 doesn't leave you much money to try to change things and to even attempt to present something.

Of course, there are key organizations that have benefited from the homeless program. We are one of them, for the past 15 years. Laval is so multicultural now, and the area where we are is over 52% English-speaking. Overall in the city of Laval, 18% of the population is English-speaking, so the needs are there. Also, when we say “population” we don't count the homeless, because they're hiding, and there are many of them. It's not because you're in Laval that if you're homeless you have to be French-speaking; there are people from the multicultural communities who are homeless.

These are figures that I find deplorable considering the amount of money that's invested to come to the aid of these people. As for our needs alone, at the moment we need to open this centre, and the “immobilization” budget—only immobilization—is $400,000. We're not talking about renovations, repairs, and upkeep, which we're going to handle ourselves. There's not enough money for us to start this program, but there is a need.

As you know, Tom, being a kid from Chomedey, like me, the needs are exorbitant. The kids are living on the street. Something has to be done. It's deteriorating, and, of course, the City of Laval is deteriorating at the same time.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

Ms. Gauvin, could you tell us if the current crisis has increased the difficulties and the challenges that the people in Au bas de l'échelle have to face? Is a person less likely to file a harassment complaint because the difficulties in finding a job have become so much greater?

[Mélanie Gauvin]

In cases of psychological harassment, the complainant has not necessarily quit his job. But it does cause a rupture in the working relationship, or, then again, the person may have to go on medical leave.

In general, the crisis has an impact on workers. At our information service, we have noticed an increase in appeals from people who have been laid off, and we are there to defend them. Often, people call us and challenge their termination. What I am going to tell you are my impressions, really. Sometimes, we feel that the crisis may give some employers an excuse to lay off employees. We also see people being laid off who have been working at the same place for 20 years or so. Or an employer tries to hire younger workers that he can pay less than a person who has 20 years of continuous service with him.

In some cases, the crisis lets employers fire people without calling it that. We sense that in the calls we receive.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

That is an excellent answer.

Mr. Picard, if I may, I would first like to say that I understand the fatigue that you expressed in your presentation. Having been on the other side, first in Quebec City as an MNA and a minister, and now in Ottawa, I realize that there can be study after study after study and things still do not change. I recently had the opportunity to go to Kanesatake and visit a seniors' centre. I was able to see for myself how bureaucratic obstacles and lack of money and resources can have a cruel effect on direct services to people.

I think that is what was behind Mr. Lessard's question, in a way. It seems to me that the federal government clearly has a problem with its ineffectiveness in both jurisdiction over, and delivery of, health matters. Objectively, the feds are responsible for veterans' health—a disaster, with health on reserves—also a disaster, and with health in prisons—need I say more?

Is there no way to look for effective people and to work closer together, at least in heath care? You have pointed out the crying need for housing very well, but I am trying to focus on health. Could that be part of the solution? They are just not good at it.

[Vice-Chief Ghislain Picard]

A little earlier, I was talking about the relationship between the federal government, mainly between the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, and our communities. The relationship is certainly inadequate. In my opinion, it is the same with Health Canada, which is the other department that has a clear, direct link with our communities. I feel that we have done more than enough to document the deplorable health conditions that our communities face.

That said, I talked about the commissions that we have established. I know this is a trend across the country. Very fortunately, we have people from the communities who know the areas well. They are spending a lot of time looking at ways to respond in our communities. Unfortunately, in a number of cases, we are also behind in prevention. By that, I mean a number of problems like diabetes, which is three times more common than elsewhere. There is also the problem of suicide. Our community is continually called on to respond, but we should also be working on prevention. Unfortunately, resources for that are completely inadequate.

We cannot talk about health without mentioning all the determinants that would allow our communities to have the same standards of health that other Canadians enjoy. These are education, housing and all the other areas of activity in our communities. If we do not attack these other determinants head on, we will always be having to make up ground in comparison to everyone else.

I heard that, two weeks ago, the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development visited the Algonquin community of Kitigan Zibi, about 90 minutes from Ottawa. I applaud that initiative. Once they have seen what is happening on the ground, perhaps people in an institution like the House of Commons will eventually get a better understanding of the situation in our communities. Kitigan Zibi is one example, but there are 600 others in the country that deserve some attention from the Parliament of Canada.

I will finish by saying that a study done by Harvard University found that the more institutions look like us and are run by people from our community, the better their chances of succeeding where governments have failed.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Raymonde Folco]

Thank you, Mr. Mulcair and Mr. Picard.

Mr. Komarnicki, you have the floor.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I certainly appreciated hearing your different and differing points of view. We will take that into consideration. As Ms. McLeod indicated, it's sometimes good be on the ground and see what's happening, and, as Mr. Picard has indicated, to see the situation at first hand.

I was happy to hear Roy Romanow quoted. Of course, he's from Saskatchewan, and that might excite Mr. Mulcair more than it does me to some extent. He was a premier in our province and also a colleague in the College of Law in Saskatchewan some 40 years ago or more.

I have a number of reserves in my riding. I have visited many of them. There's no question that housing, education, and employment are key. I think or at least instinctively feel that they are the key areas that we need to address if we hope to see much improvement.

I think education plays a significant role. I know that some of the chiefs in my area have built new schools, have obtained teachers, and are focusing a lot of efforts in that regard. I've attended a number of graduation ceremonies and was somewhat saddened to hear, when I talked to the students, that not all of them were planning to go beyond that, but I was very pleased to see the progress that was being made.

I know that money is an issue. If we look at housing, for instance, I see in our current budget that we have $4 million over two years for new social housing and remediation of existing social housing. There is $200 million to support social housing in the north. In Budget 2006, we had $1.4 billion over three years. Some of that went on-reserve and some off-reserve in northern housing.

So my question, I guess, to Mr. Picard, is whether it is just an issue of money. I think we need more money, and the other aspect is the delivery system and how that works. It seems to me that a lot of times you have to go through INAC and through the government to do something that's quite obvious to the people at the band level. Maybe we need to change how that works and devolve more of it to that level. I want to have your thoughts on (a) more money and (b) what may be a better or different delivery mechanism.

I do know that in one of my reserves, they have oil and gas development. They're quite actively involve, and a lot of employment is provided by that. I've seen partnerships among community colleges, employers, and the first nations. They proactively go out and say they'll the training, they'll provide the education, and there will be a job at the end of the road. They work as a team to make that happen.

I'd like your thoughts on dollars, system of delivery, and employment. I'm sad to see that there are too many dropouts from school. I know that, but progress is being made. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't just a matter of continuing in that direction and, over time, we'll see progress.

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

I would say that our biggest enemy is probably the demographics in our communities, which really play against us. In any normal society, it should be a plus to see so many young people, but in our situation and the situation of first nations across the country, if we're not able to raise the prospects for this segment of our population, then I think we're heading for disaster.

You could have the best delivery system you can have, but if it fails to meet the needs, it doesn't do much. I think a reference was made earlier to the funding formula in education, which is 20 years old. It hasn't been brought up to the level that it should be at today.

Earlier, I was talking about employment and training. There again, despite the fact... Certainly, it has been a plus for us that we were able to come to an agreement with the federal government, and it has been the case for the last 18 years, but if we are operating with the moneys that we had back in 1996-97 and these moneys haven't been indexed, then it doesn't do much, because we're really operating at half our capacity.

Really, in terms of the increase that a province like Quebec gets for its programs in employment and training, for instance, today we should be able to access $80 million more in terms of training and manpower in our communities, which is not the case. You're always starting the year with a deficit, and certainly, that goes for housing, health, and all the other programs in our communities.

So in response to your question, the delivery system is one thing. The issue of the backlog in many areas is another important aspect not to be forgotten.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

It would seem to me that if our hope is going to be in the youth, I suppose, before things develop.... I know that we do spend a lot of money, for example, in skills upgrading and training, to the tune of $8.3 billion across the country under provincial-federal agreements.

What you're suggesting and what I'm hearing is that we need to focus particularly on first nations and those inadequacies that have developed, however systemically, over the years, to ensure that we target those particular areas of education, skills training and upgrading, and housing. Is that correct?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

I think what we need to target is every situation that deserves attention. We always seem to be thinking from a government perspective. I certainly don't want to speak on behalf of the government, but the situation tells us that if you do this in education, then you have solved the issues of housing and health, whereas you should be concentrating on all those areas that are falling behind in our communities. Health is certainly one major sector.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Raymonde Folco]

I will go to another round, but I'm going to cut you off at five minutes.

Madam Minna, and then Mr. Lobb. We're coming to an end.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll try to be as quick as I can.

First of all, I want to say that with the issue we are discussing today, nothing is new. I hate to say this, as it sounds cynical, but for me it's not new. I've done these hearings since 1994. We've started changing, to some degree. We had the child tax benefit, which went a certain way, and then we had the child care program, early education and child care. Of course, the issues in housing, education, and health have been around for a very long time.

The issues with respect to the aboriginal communities are not new, as Mr. Picard has very clearly stated. I accept the fact that we need to move on; otherwise, all of those things we've talked about and are discussing today, which are now being exacerbated by the economy, are not going to change.

I have a few questions, but I appreciate very much that they don't cover everything that's been said. I just wanted to say that.

My first question is to Madam Gauvin. I was speaking to some elected members of the Ontario government a week ago. They were telling me that they're starting to receive a lot of phone calls from women who are pregnant and are not being hired now or are being fired, or who are coming back from maternity and are being let go. There's this approach towards women in the labour force as a result of the economic downturn.

Are you finding this discriminatory practice picking up? Have you noticed it in your clientele and in your research? Is it something we need to be aware of? A lot of them are also single mothers, and that's another problem.

[Mélanie Gauvin]

With pregnant women, yes, we have received some appeals on behalf of women who were supposed to return to work following maternity leave but whose positions had been eliminated. I have to say that the Act Respecting Labour Standards protects pregnant women very well. It makes presumptions in their favour that protect their jobs.

Nevertheless, in recent months, we have had appeals on behalf of pregnant women who have had problems. I should also say that I have been working at Au bas de l'échelle for five years. When I started, there were very few appeals from pregnant women who had been terminated or who had not been able to return to work after maternity leave. Lately, we have had several appeals like that.

As I said, the act protects female workers very well. There is a presumption in their favour and, if it happens to them, they can file a complaint on the grounds of a prohibited practice. Usually, employers are equally well informed that it is illegal to dismiss a pregnant woman under Quebec law.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you.

I'd like to go to Mr. Faucher very quickly. I obviously accept the EI changes to 360 hours and 50 weeks and so on; I think that to some degree most of us have now come to the conclusion that it is extremely important to do this.

What I wanted to ask about was with respect to older workers. Could you give us an idea of what kind of income support system you would be talking about? We have WITB, the working income support system, which won't work if people are not working. Then, of course, there is the option of taking the earlier CPP, but that would have to be brought way below, and that penalizes workers later.

So you're probably talking about something completely different. I wonder if you could tell us what that would be. Would the scheme allow people to work? I'm just saying that because my brother's in the same situation now and is desperately trying to find work. He wouldn't want to not have any work at all. Could you give us a quick response?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Raymonde Folco]

You have one minute.

[Normand Pépin, As an Individual]

The figures should be indexed, because the last time that was done was in 2007.

As for income support, the proposal is that the minimum should be about $15,200 and that the maximum should be the one set by the Employment Insurance Plan. At the moment, benefits at the highest rate for 52 weeks are probably around $22,000. I do not know if the copies of the Income Support Program for Older Workers document, which I brought in French and English, have been circulated to you.

When it comes to the possibility of work, the thinking is clearly that people who would have access to this program would be the people having great difficulty getting other jobs. Therefore, income would be the same as under the former Program for Older Worker Adjustment, the POWA, that you have on the last page of the document. Exactly the same formula would apply.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Raymonde Folco]

I am sorry, but, when there is a long question, the answer has to be short.

Mr. Lobb, I will remind you that it's five minutes. The longer your question is, the shorter the answer will be.

Mr. Lobb.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thank you. I'll be very brief.

Mr. Picard, my brother is a schoolteacher. He's taught at both ends of the wealth in the world, I would say; he taught for a number of years in Kuwait and then moved to northern Saskatchewan, where he teaches near La Loche. He has seen both ends of the world, to put it bluntly.

So far, we've had 28 or 29 meetings on this issue, and in probably 18 or 19 we've actually had groups here. We were in Moncton yesterday. Again, we know former Premier McKenna from years ago. His quote was that “the best social program we have is a job”. I'm a firm believer in that; there's no doubt about it.

I'm just curious. With the massive investment we see for renovations to first nations housing and new first nations housing, have you been able to quantify the number of jobs that will be created for first nations with this investment in housing?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

I don't have a figure for you, but one reality pertaining to the job market in our communities is that most of the jobs are seasonal in many of our communities.

We have had a very promising experience in Quebec for many of our people who live on reserve. We have a pilot project involving one of the unions in Quebec that is aimed at providing some of our workers with opportunities outside of the community. I guess the framework for that is partnership agreements with unions. That's certainly true for at least two regions in Quebec.

But at the same time, I think--and this is the point I wanted to make earlier--if we have our own institutions that have the objectives of promoting training and manpower in our communities and they don't have the means they need in order to operate to their full capacity, then obviously we're going to experience a shortage somewhere.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Raymonde Folco]

So that is the end of the...

Editors' note: technical difficulties

...matter of the aboriginal populations in Quebec and in Canada. I think that it shows everyone the dire need.

Mr. Picard, we have seen each other across the table for years. You see that all the members here are very sensitive to the issues. We will try to write a report that I hope will reflect what you have told us and also what Mr. Lafrenière and Ms. de Sève have told us as well.

I would like to thank everyone who came here this morning, and if you have documents for us, please see the clerk.

My thanks to you all.

The meeting is adjourned.