Evidence of meeting #3 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was budget.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Janice Charette  Deputy Minister, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

I call the meeting to order.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(5), we are considering supplementary estimates (B) 2008-09, votes 1b, 5b, 15b, under Human Resources and Skills Development, referred to the committee on Thursday, January 29, 2009.

I want to welcome everyone here today. I also want to thank Mr. Lessard for taking care of the committee during the last half hour this morning.

Here we are again. I want to thank the minister for making herself available. I know that we were working hard last week to find a time that would work for everybody. We know how busy you are today, and we appreciate your taking the time to meet with the committee to go over estimates.

I'm not going to do much more talking other than to welcome the rest of the department here. Then we'll get right to the minister's opening statement of around 10 minutes. After that, we'll go to our seven-minute round, followed by five minutes.

We have you here for an hour, Ms. Finley, so I'll turn the floor over to you for your opening statement. Thanks for being here.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Honourable Diane Finley Conservative Diane Finley

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Before I begin, I'd like to introduce my officials. Accompanying me is my Deputy Minister, Janice Charette, and she will introduce the rest of her team.

3:30 p.m.

Janice Charette Deputy Minister, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Thank you, Minister.

With me is Ms. Linda Lizotte-MacPherson, our new Chief Operating Officer for Service Canada and Senior Associate Deputy Minister of HRSDC; and Mr. Bruce Manion, Chief Financial Officer for HRSDC.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

As well, to my right is Karen Kinsley, the President of Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.

First of all, let me say that I'm very pleased to be here before the standing committee to answer questions about the 2009 supplementary estimates (B) and to talk about our department's role in supporting Canadians through our government's economic action plan.

Human Resources and Skills Development provides assistance to Canadians of all ages, everyone from families with young children to seniors entering their golden years. We assist students making the transition from school to work. We help workers make the transition from one job to another. We assist the unemployed reintegrate into the workforce, and we help those making the transition from the workforce to retirement.

We also play an important role in assisting some of society's most vulnerable, including persons with disabilities, aboriginal Canadians and those with lower incomes.

Mr. Chair, many Canadians are facing difficult times of transition during the current economic slowdown. Over the last few months, the global economic situation has deteriorated further and faster than anyone had predicted. While Canada continues to fare better than many other countries, Canadians are feeling the effects of the global recession, and they're concerned.

I understand their worries. Every day I hear and see first-hand the stories of those who have lost their jobs through no fault of their own. I see and hear first-hand the stories of those who are worried about making ends meet. They're worried about keeping their jobs. They're worried about being able to pay their mortgages. They're worried about being able to take care of their families. Many are even worried about simply putting food on the table.

It's during these difficult times that Canadians need to know that their government is listening to them and that we have an action plan that will help them. To address the most pressing needs of workers affected by the current economic downturn, Canada's economic action plan is investing $8.3 billion for the Canada skills and transition strategy.

Let me discuss many of the items that are part of this strategy.

We will help those facing unemployment. We will protect jobs. We will invest in training and skills development.

Further to our Budget 2008 commitment, we'll also make post-secondary education more affordable and accessible for Canadian students and families by investing in new student financial assistance measures beginning in the fall of 2009. As part of our economic action plan, we're proposing to increase funding to the provinces and territories so that more Canadians can have access to the training and skills they need to land a new job.

But we cannot do it alone. We will do it in partnership with the provinces and territories.

So recognizing that the provinces and territories have the pulse of their local labour markets, we'll invest $1 billion over two years through the employment insurance program under existing agreements. These funds will enable provinces and territories to train an additional 100,000 EI-eligible clients in hard-hit sectors and regions of our economy.

A proposed new strategic training and transition fund will provide $500 million over two years. This fund will provide flexibility to help meet the different training and support needs of workers affected by the downturn, whether or not they qualify for employment insurance, and up to 50,000 individuals could benefit.

Another area of investment is the targeted initiative for the older workers program. We are increasing this program's budget, providing an additional $60 million over three years, and we're expanding its reach. Assistance will be made available to more workers in a large number of cities, particularly those heavily dependent upon a single sector or single employer facing adjustments.

We have an apprenticeship incentive grant to encourage more Canadians to get into the skilled trades, and we propose to build on this by adding a new grant for apprentices who successfully complete their apprenticeship training in a red seal trade. This $2,000 grant could benefit up to 20,000 eligible apprentices per year.

To further support the trades, the Prime Minister and premiers recently agreed to work together so that Canada can benefit from the experience of skilled new Canadians. To this end, we are committing $50 million over two years to help more newcomers obtain the certification they need to get to work quickly once they get to Canada.

Mr. Chair, let me now turn to employment insurance. In an economic downturn EI is the first line of defence. As members know, EI has important features that automatically respond to changing economic conditions. As employment rates increase in a given region, the number of hours required to access EI is reduced, and the duration of benefits increases. The government, however, is taking significant additional steps to help Canadians. For the next two years we'll make available nationally the five weeks of extended EI benefits that have previously been available through a pilot project only in regions with the highest unemployment. The government will also increase the maximum duration of benefits to 50 weeks. Some 400,000 claimants could benefit from these changes.

We also intend to support long-term training for those workers who have worked many years and did not make significant use of EI. We would extend income support for the duration of their training, and this would benefit 40,000 workers.

The government will also freeze EI premium rates for 2010 at $1.73 per $100. This is the same rate as 2009, and it provides a projected stimulus of $4.5 billion relative to break-even rates.

What's more, we'll extend work-sharing agreements by 14 weeks to a maximum of 52 weeks. This will enable Canadians to continue working while companies adjust to a temporary slowdown and recovery. To complement this measure, we're also proposing to increase access to work-sharing agreements through greater flexibility in the qualifying criteria.

In terms of processing EI claims, our priority is to ensure that clients receive their EI benefits just as quickly as possible. We've already made significant efforts and investments to process the increasing EI claims. We're hiring additional staff, redistributing workloads across the country, and recalling recent retirees. We're also increasing overtime, opening EI call centres on Saturdays, and increasing automation of claims processing, and we will do more as it's needed.

In a time of economic uncertainty, housing is of particular importance to Canadians. We have an obligation to protect the most vulnerable citizens in this country. In September 2008 our government committed $1.9 billion over the next five years for housing, to improve and build new affordable housing for low-income Canadians and to help the homeless. Canada's economic action plan invests more than $2 billion in additional social housing, creating jobs in construction and renovation. We hope provincial and territorial governments will match this investment because this will help families and individuals in need access safe and affordable housing at rents they can afford. It will bring older projects up to standard and make them more energy efficient.

We will also invest in new social housing for low-income seniors and persons with disabilities so they can continue to live independently in their communities. We have an obligation to protect the most vulnerable citizens of this country.

That's why our government, in September 2008, made a five-year commitment of $1.9 billion to extend housing and homelessness programs to low-income Canadians. And we will be building new social housing and repairing and modernizing existing social housing in first nations communities and in Canada's far north.

The supplementary estimates addressed a couple of issues that are close to my heart. Elder abuse is a subject that has required a focused and coordinated effort, involving the Department of Justice, the Public Health Agency of Canada, and the RCMP, with HRSD providing a leadership role.

We are now in a position to work with stakeholders to help seniors and others to prevent abuse and recognize the symptoms.

On the disabilities side, I took great pride in helping launch the Canada disability savings program. The goal is to provide for the financial security of persons with severe and prolonged impairments and physical or mental functions.

My personal struggle with a physical disability has taught me the importance of providing avenues for independence and self-sufficiency for persons with disabilities. They appreciate that so much.

Mr. Chair, our government recognizes the challenges ahead. We understand and sympathize with those who are going through these difficult times. Following the most extensive pre-budget consultations that our country has ever seen, we've heard from and are delivering for Canadians through our economic action plan. This plan will stimulate the economy and will create and maintain jobs.

As parliamentarians, we owe it to Canadians to pass this legislation as soon as possible.

This plan is currently before Parliament, and I urge all members to pass it without delay.

I now invite committee members to ask questions on the supplementary estimates (B) or on any of the HRSD measures announced in Canada's economic action plan.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Minister.

I'm just going to remind the members that the first round is going to be seven minutes, followed by subsequent rounds of five minutes. I have a timer here, and when it goes off it's going to beep and be obnoxious. We're going to try that and see how it works. We are on a tight timeline. We want to get as many rounds in today as possible.

Without any more conversation, Mr. Savage, the first round is yours, sir.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you, Chair. If you could let me know when I have two minutes left, my colleague wants a quick question.

Thank you, Minister. It's nice to have you here. We get to chat in little short bursts in the House of Commons, but that's such a cold, formal place that it's nice to have you at committee.

Minister, it's nice to see the staff here who gave us a briefing. I know they work very hard.

In the budget you've increased by five weeks the EI benefits for those who are already on them, and that's been widely criticized because we didn't do anything about increasing access for people. You also didn't do anything on the two-week waiting period. Can you tell me why you chose the five weeks as opposed to something more meaningful on EI reform? “Meaningful” may be a pejorative term, but excuse that.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

First of all, let me say that I am delighted to be here, and it is nice to have this chance to have some open and constructive conversation. When we did our consultations across the country, we heard from a lot of people, and they said they wanted to have a longer term of benefits. They were concerned that with this worsening global recession, the current system wouldn't last them long enough. That's why we've added five weeks on top of the regular benefits for those who need it the most, because we believe that will help more people who are more in need.

In terms of access, the way the system is designed, it automatically adjusts as conditions get worse on a regional basis. The country is divided into 58 regions, and the employment conditions in each of those regions are monitored monthly. As the conditions change, the access becomes greater. If the conditions worsen, access becomes easier and the benefits occur longer. That's something that's automatically built into the system. We've seen some great examples of that lately, as to how it is working for Canadians.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Have you determined the cost of that versus the cost of eliminating the two weeks?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

There are some other challenges with eliminating the two weeks. For example, there is a constant churn in the market. It would actually block the accessibility of those who really need EI if everyone were to be put through the system even though they were just moving to another job. That's another reason we want to do this. But we did look at what Canadians asked us for, and that's what we are delivering.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

It doesn't seem to be what Canadians are asking for, judging by the reaction from social policy organizations. Even the C.D. Howe Institute, as I heard in the House today, indicated that they were surprised that you didn't do something to increase the access for people to EI. EI is arguably, from the numbers I've seen, the best stimulus we can have, because the people who get EI have to spend it virtually right away.

Is it possible for you or your officials to get back to me with the cost of eliminating the two-week waiting period versus adding the five weeks at the end? Okay.

Also, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about a comment you made where you suggested a week and a half ago that you didn't want to make EI too lucrative and pay people not to work. That's an offensive term to many people in Canada. Could you explain what you meant when you said that?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

When I talk to folks in my beautiful riding of Haldimand—Norfolk, they are suffering. They are losing their jobs, unfortunately, and they're asking me how they could best get back to work. They know, they've heard, and we're seeing right across the country that there are a lot of positions still open where they can't find the skills that are needed to fill those jobs. People are asking me, “How can we get the training to fill those jobs?”

This is a global economic recession. It's affecting different parts of the country differently. What we want to do is to help people get the training they need to get the jobs that need to be filled. That's the real goal here.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

I appreciate that, and I agree, there is some money for training. I think that's a good thing.

You mentioned your beautiful riding of Haldimand—Norfolk. What is the unemployment rate there? How long do people have to work? What's the qualification period? I'm sure you deal with constituents.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

It's the same as the entire region, and it changes monthly, just as the others do. I do not have today's—

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

I know in my region, with the unemployment rate, you need 700 hours to qualify.

That's okay. If you don't know, that's fine.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

I don't have what it is as of today.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

I have one quick question, Minister, and then I'm going to let Monsieur D'Amours have a go at this.

I'm looking at a chart that indicates that a two-earner family with two kids, earning $150,000, is a net beneficiary of $483 from the measures in this budget, from the changes to the tax system in the budget, whereas a $20,000-income two-earner family gets nothing. Does that seem fair to you?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

There are different circumstances for different families. According to the research I had from my own riding, the average family of four, with two kids, has about $1,365 in tax relief. It depends on the circumstances and local issues.

By the way, I do have the numbers for my beautiful riding of Haldimand—Norfolk. It takes 665 hours to qualify.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

I was just interested in whether you knew that.

J-C.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Thank you, Mr. Savage.

Minister, I would like to ask you two quick questions.

Do you find it acceptable that people are currently required to wait 55 days before receiving their first employment insurance cheque? That's the reality, and a 55-day waiting period probably isn't the worst case. I know the specific case of a person who lost his apartment and is losing his car. He couldn't even buy groceries. Fifty-five days without receiving a cent: do you find that acceptable, yes or no?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Not at all.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

If you don't find it acceptable, Minister, why has this situation lasted?

The second specific case I would like to talk about is as follows. A young woman stops working, files for employment insurance and, three days later, has a baby. She has to wait 40 days before receiving her first employment insurance cheque for maternity benefits. Do you think it's acceptable for a single mother to be forced to pay for diapers, milk and food for her baby when she isn't even able to buy groceries?

This is an everyday occurrence. Why is the system unable to help people locally—our workers and mothers giving birth—when they are in need in their region, in their community?

Do you find it acceptable to have a 40-day waiting period without receiving a single cent with which to support a newborn baby?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

I just said I didn't find those situations acceptable. Not at all. That's why we are investing a great deal to increase resources.

We're expanding the resources that we're giving to delivering EI in a timely manner. We're raising the standards. We're already processing 30% more claims in each month than we have historically, and we are still—

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Minister, the 40-day waiting for the mother was in September of last year, before the crisis hit.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Mr. D'Amours, that's all the time we have right now.

Thank you for your answer.

We're going to move to the next question.

Monsieur Lessard, seven minutes, sir.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I also want to thank the minister for agreeing to arrange her schedule so as to meet us today.

I'm going to try to ask some brief questions to get some direct answers. In budget 2007, if I'm not mistaken, the government made a commitment to complete the job training transfer, particularly for youth, seniors and persons with disabilities.

You are currently negotiating with Quebec on this matter. Where do the negotiations stand, and when will the money be transferred? Is it correct to say that the federal government wants to set conditions in order to be able to carry out this training?