The roots of youth violence report said that “if such racial inequalities persist and continue to deepen, the social fabric of Ontario will be stretched well beyond the breaking point”. I think the point they're trying to make is that we need to be concerned, in this case, about a growing gap that has a racial dimension to it. In many societies around the world, where that kind of dimension has become entrenched, you'll find it very difficult to reverse the trend.

When we get to the issue of desegregated data, I think there are some data we can use. I do not accept the proposition that we cannot do the measuring that we need to do because there's no data, but I think we can refine the data that are available. There are a number of organizations and institutions experimenting with various ways of collecting those data. The important thing is that we cannot solve our health care problems, our problems around education, our problems around poverty unless and if we know specifically what the nature of those problems is.

2:45 p.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Mr. Chair, could I add one last question to that?

2:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Maurice Vellacott

You'll have to be very succinct.

2:45 p.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

As you answered my previous question--and if anyone else wants to, they can also add to it, and if you know or if you don't, that's fine--to what extent is Multicultural Canada right now or in the last little while being of any assistance in this area? That's what that department is really about. It's about integration. That's its mandate, or it's supposed to be if you look at the Multiculturalism Act. Are you aware of any work going on in this area by that department at this point?

I gather it's no, so that's fine. I understand.

2:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Maurice Vellacott

Monsieur Ouellet.

2:45 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Thank you.

Mr. Campey, unless I'm mistaken, you said a little earlier on that there were 10 times more suicides among the poor than among other groups within the workforce. Did you say that?

2:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Community Social Planning Council of Toronto

John Campey

We carried out a study which showed that in Ontario individuals on social assistance are 10 times more likely to try to commit suicide than people who are employed.

2:45 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Did you do a study to see what the costs would be to the state, in terms of costs over the life cycle, when we lose an individual to suicide because that person was not working?

2:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Community Social Planning Council of Toronto

John Campey

No, we've not done that.

2:45 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

It would be huge.

2:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Community Social Planning Council of Toronto

John Campey

I believe so. We've just completed this study, but we feel that this fact is sickening enough. There clearly is a financial cost but the societal and moral costs are very high.

2:50 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Thank you.

2:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Maurice Vellacott

Olivia, do you have a quick question?

2:50 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Thank you.

Just to follow up on my first question, obviously there has not been a whole lot of political will in the last twenty years or else things would have changed. What can your group do to develop the kind of political will that is needed to begin to tackle some of these challenges? Perhaps I will come back to this side. Perhaps we could have a very short answer.

2:50 p.m.

Executive Director, COSTI Immigrant Services

Mario Calla

I think the big issue is connecting taxes with services. Whenever the discussion comes up, it's as if there's no relationship between the two. That really concerns me, because as it relates to your previous question, we're looking at a $50 billion deficit. The government is projecting deficits for the next five years, I believe, and I know that's going to roll down to the work that we do. I know it's going to impact the people on the street. But I didn't see anywhere in the discussion, when Minister Flaherty spoke about the $50 billion cuts, anything about the fact that we kind of painted ourselves into a corner in that we dropped the GST by 2¢. Billions and billions of dollars are gone. That's why it's up at $50 billion. If you included that money in there, you would soften it. I think it's that relationship, and the relationship right down at street level.

Two weeks ago I was consulting with some mental health consumers, and we were talking about the importance of connections to maintain one's mental health and so on. One woman said, “You know, I get calls from friends to go out for a coffee. I can't afford a coffee, and so I find an excuse for not going out, and after a while they stop calling.” That's the impact--that people can't afford a cup of coffee. That 2¢ in the GST may mean nothing to someone who's making a good income, but that person isn't going out and buying anything such that the GST cut will mean anything to her.

So it's that connection between services and taxes that, for some reason, gets lost every time the discussion comes up.

2:50 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

So you support increasing the GST, which represents $12 billion a year.

2:50 p.m.

Executive Director, COSTI Immigrant Services

Mario Calla

I support $12 billion a year.

2:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Maurice Vellacott

Professor Grace-Edward, and then we'll adjourn. Go ahead.

2:50 p.m.

Prof. Grace Edward Galabuzi

Adding to what Mario said, low-income Canadians depend disproportionately on public services. And the choices being made for tax cuts, which they cannot readily access, over the provision of public services simply exacerbates the situation for poor people. It particularly exacerbates the situation for racialized people, especially, as I said, low-income racialized women, who desperately need child care spaces to be able to access the labour market. A tax cut cannot compensate for that.

2:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Maurice Vellacott

Thank you Grace-Edward Galabuzi, Mario, Naumana, John, and Cathy, for your good input to us today.

We'll adjourn this 36th meeting of our committee on this particular study. At three o'clock we'll resume. The meeting is adjourned.