Human Resources Committee on June 2nd, 2009

[Avvy Yao-Yao Go]

Can I make a comment?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Sure, just very quickly.

[Avvy Yao-Yao Go]

I just want to point out that apart from the effect on physical health, poverty also can cause mental health issues. A lot of the clients we see can't afford medication, as was mentioned, but poverty adds to their depression.

I was at a CPP disability appeal this morning, and my client had fibromyalgia, DDD, all kinds of illnesses, and she can't afford to pay for the painkillers. She's used Chinese medicine; she burns her skin to stop the pain, and she is completely scarred. She has asked the doctor for medication to kill herself.

The lack of good physical health can sometimes lead to mental health issues as well. And of course, there are also studies that show that racism is a factor in mental health. So all of these issues have to be looked at as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

We are going to turn to Mr. Lobb, for seven minutes.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm feeling pretty collegial today, so if Ms. Minna doesn't mind, I'll share my time with her today, seeing as this is in her hometown. She can have a few extra questions here today.

Mr. Creek, if you don't want to go into any personal details, I quite understand, but I just wondered if you could explain a bit more. We often hear how people get into poverty or homeless situations. You've expressed that you were able to remove yourself from that, climb up. I just wondered if you could tell the committee what some of the key steps were, the key milestones that you reached to help you to rise up there.

[Michael Creek]

First I'd like to start with how I fell into poverty. I fell into poverty because I was diagnosed with cancer. I had started a new job and I had no private insurance that would cover me. I quickly found out that in this country, we don't have a social safety net. From there, I spent those next 13 years living in poverty.

Speaking of some of the health issues, for 13 years I had two open wounds on my leg that would not heal. Often those wounds were right to the bone, so they were very painful. Since I have been able to eat better, those wounds are finally healing. So it does have a lot to do with health and how you can access nutritional food.

To the second part of the question, it was a bit of chance that I found my way out of poverty. I was in the doctor's office, because I was going through a depression. That's often found when you're living in poverty; you just can't avoid it.

There was a poster on the wall that said they were looking for people to train in public speaking, conflict resolution, to study policy, and to use the lived experience to work toward change. I took a chance. Often these courses and things that are offered in the community don't really lead anywhere. In this case, for me, I went through the 12-week training course. At the end of those 12 weeks, the coordinator left, and after a couple of months of working very hard, I was offered that job.

One of the things that is really lacking for people who are living in poverty is those choices and those opportunities. They are just not available.

A good example here in Ontario is a training program that was available for people who were laid off. Yet if you were on Ontario Works or the Ontario disability support program, you were excluded. If those opportunities were made available to people, it would allow some people to find their way out of poverty.

So it isn't always just about more money. It's about opportunities and chances for people to change their lives on their own.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Minna.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Lobb.

I was going to ask a question of Ms. Go to clarify something.

Does Ontario not cover a certain number of drugs for low-income Ontarians? Am I wrong on that? I'm just going back to the drug issue you had mentioned.

[Avvy Yao-Yao Go]

There are different programs--Trillium, and if you're on OW and ODSP you'd be able to get your drugs covered as well--but not everyone who is poor or working poor will be able to access all these programs. So in my particular case, my client is married with four kids, and her husband works. The income is enough to support the family but not enough to pay for all the drugs she needs.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Just to clarify, I know there's a certain income level where the families of individuals in Ontario are exempt from paying the monthly health care bill. I also thought there was blanket coverage for drugs for low-income Ontarians.

[Avvy Yao-Yao Go]

No.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Okay. I thought there was. So it's just welfare and ODSP primarily.

[Michael Creek]

Even when you're on ODSP and Ontario Works, you still have to pay $2. People don't think that's very much, but if you have to pay for four prescriptions, that would be $8. You also have to get to that drugstore, you also have to get to that doctor. It can add up to quite a bit of money.

In my case, it used to be $30 or $40 each month to fill my prescriptions. There are extenuating circumstances when we look around prescription drugs for people on ODSP and Ontario Works.

[Theresa Agnew]

Just to add to that, you would probably be surprised at the exclusions. Only certain drugs are covered under the list, and that's if you qualify under Ontario Works or ODSP.

Just as an example, diabetic medications are covered but not the newer ones. The ones that are most efficacious and are related to the fewest side effects are not covered. Strips for the diabetic monitors are not covered. So if you want somebody to be well controlled, like someone with diabetes, you want them to be checking their blood sugar, but many people will not be able to afford the strips, which cost $1 each, on average.

Another piece that's not covered is dental care. I have many clients who have access to food but can't eat the food because they don't have dentures.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I need another clarification. In the last year or two, didn't the Ontario government extend dental care? That was for children, I guess.

[Theresa Agnew]

There is to be an expansion of the dental care program in Ontario. Right now some of my clients can access emergency dental care through some public dental clinics. But it doesn't apply to preventative dental care, and you can't get dentures through any of those programs. Despite the announcement of the expanded dental care program, we've yet to see the actual details of the program announced.

For example, if you are a family on Ontario Works, the children have dental care and can access coverage, but if you're a senior, you do not necessarily have access.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Your organization does great work. I know that the Niagara school board just finished building some houses last year in the Niagara area. I think they're going to El Salvador or some other place. It's great to see that participation.

Some people have given testimony that because of bylaws you can't add granny flats and things like that. Would that help a whole lot? I guess some of that stuff is helpful, but I don't think it'll solve the problem by any stretch. Would it help much?

[Wayne de Jong]

Proper zoning and bylaws could easily put Habitat for Humanity out of business. For example, many municipalities have zoned certain areas so that developers have to include 5% of affordable housing in any new development. Of course, developers fight that like mad, because it's not in their best interests. In communities that have implemented this practice, for example in British Columbia, it has virtually eliminated the problem of not having enough affordable housing. That can certainly help a great deal.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

You would recommend that we get the municipalities to help. As I said, it won't fix the problem, but it will alleviate some of the concerns.

[Wayne de Jong]

Allowing secondary suites can make a huge difference in communities. It has made all the difference in many urban communities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

When you talk about the cost of land, you're right, it's already there. You're really just talking about the cost of building.

Is it true you guys are planning to build 250 homes this year?

[Wayne de Jong]

Yes, in 2009.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

What are your plans for the future? It seems to me it's been ramping up every year. In 2010-2011, is this going to continue?

[Wayne de Jong]

Our goal is to get to 500 homes per year in Canada within the next four or five years, together with an equal number internationally. We have a large international program. In Canada our immediate goal is 500. That's just a drop in the bucket, and we realize that, but in the 72 communities where we build Habitat homes, it's an opportunity to raise awareness about poverty and the need for affordable housing. Many hundreds of volunteers are involved in every Habitat build. They all learn a lot about their community, and many of them get involved in advocacy for affordable housing and the reduction of poverty.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I think that would be a great benefit. I like the model you use. I realize it can't be used in every circumstance, but you guys give interest-free loans. I'm assuming that you get donations. You guys almost act like a bank. You coordinate and the volunteer effort is fantastic. You ask people to help and participate. By and large, I'm sure you build houses cheaper because of the volunteerism, but a large portion of the money you raise goes out as interest-free and down-payment-free loans.