Evidence of meeting #58 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-56.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4 p.m.
Liberal
4 p.m.
Liberal
Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
I know a lot of people do direct selling part-time because it fills a need. My wife has been a direct seller in the past--and you may want to cover your ears, Ms. Rose--for Arbonne. I notice they are with the direct sellers as well.
So it only fits a need for about 25% of your members.
4 p.m.
President, Direct Sellers Association of Canada
The independent sales contractors, yes.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
For the grain growers, particularly Ms. Ego, if I could, in order to qualify for maternity benefits, as you know, you would have to pay 12 months in advance and then draw it. Then you would have to pay the $1.73 rate for the rest of your life in order to have paid for those benefits. Is that a concern to you? Do you think that would be an issue for people?
4 p.m.
Canadian Young Farmers, Representative, Grain Growers of Canada
Yes. That is something that may be specific to agriculture, as well, because they say you don't put farmers into retirement, you put them out to pasture. That's because they don't leave the farm, they continue to work and work and work into sometimes much later years than other people would. So that might be a consideration, in particular, for younger farmers.
4 p.m.
Liberal
4 p.m.
Canadian Young Farmers, Representative, Grain Growers of Canada
I consider myself young. I'm 36.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
But it is an issue, I guess, when you know that you're committing yourself to paying a premium for the rest of your life for a benefit. I don't know how you get around that, but that would be a concern for people who are as young as yourself or younger.
4 p.m.
Canadian Young Farmers, Representative, Grain Growers of Canada
I think individuals in that case--and I have to admit I haven't had access to as much of the number crunching and what not as maybe some of the other members have--would have to look at their own situation and then see if it worked for them.
November 24th, 2009 / 4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I, too, want to welcome you and thank you for your input into this study of Bill C-56.
I see that all of your organizations are in favour of Bill C-56. Parliamentarians are also in favour, as you have seen. But it is important to determine whether the scope of this bill and funding for the bill are adequate.
My first question pertains to full Employment Insurance coverage. First of all, you looked at the possibility of benefits being paid where, for example, you are out of work, whether it is on a farm or as a self-employed person, in any respect. Would have wanted the bill to also cover benefits in cases of financial problems?
4:05 p.m.
Vice-President, Government and Regulatory Affairs, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada
Perhaps I can respond first. When we discussed this matter internally, the issue was never raised; it was not a primary concern. As for our members, I cannot say whether they support the idea of extending eligibility to all Employment Insurance benefits.
From a more practical standpoint, I have trouble understanding how such a program would work. It might be at odds with what really constitutes a self-employed worker, who has a great deal of autonomy and independence in terms of control over his or her work. So I think that I have more questions than answers.
4:05 p.m.
Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
I agree.
I agree with Madame Presseault. In concept, I think a lot of people would think it makes sense. But in practice, I don't think it's something that can work practically. I also think that many self-employed are very independent and they are controlling their own work so they can't necessarily.... Well, you can't fire yourself, I guess, is the ultimate word. You can't really lay yourself off. So I think in practical terms, it would just be way too difficult to manage.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC
I see you that you agree, so my understanding is that you are all more or less in agreement on that.
It is indeed very hard to get exact numbers concerning the real costs. We know that the government has free up some budget items by calculating that of the total amount of Employment Insurance premiums, there is $4 billion that goes to the entire program for the four types of coverage. Of that $4 billion, two thirds so to parental and maternity leave. The government therefore made that split in order to determine the contribution rate for the four programs, which is the same for all programs.
Would you have wanted the government to do something different and make a separate calculation, disregarding the general program? Do you understand my question?
Mr. Phillips.
4:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Grain Growers of Canada
We weren't asked or consulted on this, but I think our sense would be, certainly among the farmers, that maternity and paternity would be the big pieces. If you were going to participate in the program I think those are two key areas that you would be very interested in.
You can't predict when you're going to get sick. There are some things you can't predict. But if you are planning on having a family, I think that's something you can then look forward to and count on using.
There aren't often day cares and that around in rural communities, so this is one where I think the families would use it. You'd be able to stay at home and hire somebody to come in to backfill so you're not taking your baby out into the field with you all the time and trying to do the jobs that we do on farms.
4:10 p.m.
Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
As I mentioned in my remarks, we also have not been consulted. We don't know. And the numbers that you mentioned, we have not seen before.
Our sense, though, given the demographics of the self-employed, is generally that they tend to be older. This, again, is just a sense, and we don't have anything to back it up, but I think that the sickness benefit component could also be quite attractive simply because of the older generation who tend to become self-employed and with the boomer population moving more into self-employment. Sometimes it can be very difficult, if you're older or you have a pre-existing condition, to access private health coverage, and this allows them another option out there. So I wouldn't be surprised if you do see sickness benefits also being something that perhaps some of the self-employed who may be past their child-bearing years would take advantage of.
4:10 p.m.
Bloc
Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC
That answer goes for everyone, is that correct?
Regarding the earnings needed to qualify for the program, the proposes an income of $6,000 a year. Have you had an opportunity to analyse that way of becoming eligible and does that not create disparity between people who are paid a high hourly rate and those who earn minimum wage?
In Quebec, it is $10 an hour, so it would take 600 hours to qualify, whereas a person who earns $20 an hour will need 300 hours.
Do you not find that there is disparity that could be unfair to some people?
4:10 p.m.
Vice-President, Government and Regulatory Affairs, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada
First of all, I would like to say that your questions are important and very relevant.
Truth be told, we would have looked at those issues in the context of a special group that was supposed to be set up for that purpose. We were caught a bit short, because the bill moved forward very quickly. We therefore feel the program which is not perfect, should go ahead, but we will have a chance to evaluate and study very closely at it unfolds.
However, your question about hourly wages does not really apply to certified general accountants in Canada.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Welcome to you all.
I can't believe we're going to talk about EI and agree on it.
You are surprised by the numbers, which are coming in at the last minute. It is not easy to do an evaluation. We are being told that in 2014, the program will have a $78-million deficit. If I am not mistaken, that is a concern for you.
What do you propose? Do you have any ideas? According to you, five years is too long. You therefore suggest a period of three years. The program is new, and we are exploring options, seeing what can be done. What else could be done to pay for the program?
4:10 p.m.
Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
As I said in my remarks, we believe this is part of the process and has to be reviewed on an ongoing basis and adjusted. It should be reviewed more frequently than every five years. Because the self-financing component is such an important element of this bill, waiting for five years will probably be too long. Perhaps some sort of mechanism can be put into the system to allow them to monitor it on an ongoing basis or annual basis, and then adjust those premiums for the self-employed accordingly.
4:15 p.m.
Vice-President, Government and Regulatory Affairs, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada
I proposed a period of three years, but that is a completely random number. There would be one year of contributions, and after two years, we might know where we are going. It will be important to take the pulse and study the issue closely to ensure that benefits are not paid at the expense of employers or workers who contribute to the other part of the program.
