Evidence of meeting #9 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ken Battle  President, Caledon Institute of Social Policy
Sherri Torjman  Vice-President, Caledon Institute of Social Policy
Andrew Sharpe  Executive Director, Centre for the Study of Living Standards
Glen Roberts  Vice-President, Research and Development, Canadian Policy Research Networks

12:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Centre for the Study of Living Standards

Dr. Andrew Sharpe

I would concur with that assessment. The child benefit has been a great boon for poverty reduction for women. I mentioned in my presentation that the poverty rate for lone female parents has fallen from 53% to around 32% over the last 10 years. That is largely linked to both the stronger economy, which means there are more of the lone parents who can enter the labour force, and of course the child benefit. I think that program has been very effective in reducing the overall poverty rate of women.

12:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Research and Development, Canadian Policy Research Networks

Dr. Glen Roberts

I don't have anything to add at this point.

12:05 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

In 1989, the House of Commons passed unanimously a resolution to eliminate poverty, more specifically child poverty, by 2000. We know today this has not happened. We also know the opinion of the UN Social Development Commission which has been very critical of Canada three years ago. I think we all recognize that a global strategy is required to eliminate poverty.

In your mind, since you looked at this situation in your work, what would be the main components to include in a global Canadian strategy to combat poverty?

12:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Centre for the Study of Living Standards

Dr. Andrew Sharpe

Again, as I mentioned in my presentation, the key strategy for a policy to reduce or eliminate child poverty, first, is a strong economy. The lower the unemployment rate, the lower the poverty rate will be for parents and therefore for children. Second, it's the targeting of benefits towards children. We've done that very successfully through the national child benefit strategy, where both the federal and provincial governments have developed particular support systems and income support for children.

We have to do more in that regard. As I mentioned earlier, the poverty rate of children has fallen more than it has for other age groups. There's still a lot more to do. The key is that there has to be a strong economy so there are employment opportunities for families, and then target the benefits towards the children.

12:10 p.m.

Vice-President, Research and Development, Canadian Policy Research Networks

Dr. Glen Roberts

I'm going to pick up the question that was raised at the same time that I touch on that.

I tried to outline what that the strategy might look like. First of all, it has to have some clear, agreed upon goals. I think there is an appetite right now in Canada, and you see across the provinces that there is a movement towards poverty strategies at the provincial level. I think there is an opportunity for some federal leadership to try to bring the various players to the table and come up with some common goals. We need a common definition of that and the indicators that support it. There's a big measurement piece that I think the federal government could very easily lead on.

Second, there are the investments in those key areas that we've all described, such as early childhood education, child care, housing, and making sure that we're actually reinforcing and enforcing our employment standards. Finally, we need to make sure that we're delivering on those goals.

The question was raised about how we rally with the existing funding models. If we start thinking in terms of performance agreements around those goals, there is an appetite, and it already occurs at the sub-provincial level. I think there has to be some firmness behind that, but once we have some agreed upon goals, I would think that the performance agreements that relate to those are.... There would be some level of willingness as long as we're willing to stand firm.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

I am sorry, Mr. Lessard, but your time is up.

I'll now ask Mr. Martin to ask his questions.

12:10 p.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Thank you very much, Chair.

I thank all the witnesses today for preparing and presenting to us some constructive and positive suggestions as to the role of the federal government.

I've heard all of you agree that the federal government has a pretty major role to play and that we should get ourselves engaged and involved, and that there should be a strategy of some sort. We've talked to a couple of the provincial ministers who are working at implementing their own strategy. They're saying that it will be very difficult for them without the federal contribution, particularly in these economic times.

I was pleased with the commonalities that I heard, that we need definitions and indicators; we need to be able to do analysis, evaluations, and set targets. We need to put in place an architecture and a structure that will work. I think there was certainly agreement on focusing on the disabled and women, and there's support for child care and early learning across the board, as well as affordable housing and social infrastructure. I was particularly intrigued by that. Also, we need to develop an enabling environment so that people can actually participate.

My question is in terms of trying to do that. As Mr. Battle has told us, we do have some programs that we put in place, the Canada Pension Plan and the unemployment insurance system, as it used to be called, that was more universally available to people. The universality of some of these programs.... I hear provinces now talking about 25% and 5%. I always worry about the 75% that don't get to live out of poverty because we decided we're going to do 25% and 5%.

It seems that when we did the Canada Pension Plan, and I don't have the history of that, we didn't say we'll do 25% in the first five years and then we'll do everybody else later. We decided that we were going to put in place a program that was going to be universally available to everybody. We later added the GIS, I believe, to make sure that those who were falling below the poverty line would not live in desperate poverty. We have seniors in the country now who used to live in some pretty difficult circumstances who are relatively better off.

The question is on the universality of programs. Is that an important consideration as we go forward, or do we hive off pieces as we go along?

12:15 p.m.

President, Caledon Institute of Social Policy

Ken Battle

I can pick up on part of what you said, Tony.

You've heard from all of us that there's been progress for seniors and there's been progress for kids. The area where we've made no progress--in fact it's gone backwards--is for working-age adults. This gets us back to employment insurance, which is, both in a political sense and in a policy sense, a dog's breakfast. It's incredibly difficult to reform employment insurance, as we've found through experience. Yet, to me, one of the absolutely crucial parts of any kind of poverty reduction strategy is income support for the unemployed. This is one of the basic fundamentals of a modern social security system. As you just said, it's so far from universal, it's hard to believe.

The shrinkage in coverage of employment insurance is the most extraordinarily negative event in the modern history of Canadian social policy. I mean, if you think of it in terms of a social insurance contract between working Canadians and their federal government, everybody pays for this program, everybody who's an employed person—it doesn't cover the self-employed, of course—and a small percentage of them, when they need the program, get the program. It's not only income benefits; it's also the related training and employment development services that are connected with eligibility for EI.

It's a controversial program. It's very, very difficult politically for any government of the day to make rational changes to that program, but that doesn't change the fact that it's an horrifically inequitable program. The variable entrance requirement that I mentioned means that employment insurance is like a three-dimensional chess game. Whether you get benefits and the amount of benefits that you get and how long you get them for depends on which of the 58 regional unemployment regions you live in. You can have two people who are unemployed, who had the same earnings pattern before they fell unemployed, and one of them could end up with a maximum benefit and the other could not even receive benefits. They're two unemployed Canadians and our federal program is treating them differently depending on the unemployment region where they live.

I just find that unbelievable. Between that and the fact that whether you get EI or not is a long shot, it seems to me that's the weakest link federally in our poverty reduction strategy.

Now, we've made some proposals, as I said, and I agree with what Andrew said about the need to bolster that program as part of the fiscal stimulus. The Americans are doing that. A traditional role of employment insurance during a recession is to be counter-cyclical. But even when the economy improves, which it will, that program will still be inadequate. It's still going to miss a huge chunk of Canadians whose work patterns will disqualify them from employment insurance. That's what has driven us to start to think in more architectural terms that maybe employment insurance will never be adequate to the modern labour market; maybe we do have to add a second kind of a program, an income-tested program, which would provide unemployment benefits to people who simply will never fit into a social insurance program.

We've also connected the work we're doing to the reform of welfare. Welfare is another terrible, archaic program that is not working. I know it's not a federal program, but you can't talk about poverty reduction in Canada without talking about one of the main programs that keeps people poor, which is welfare.

I'm saying all of that not to be grim about it all, but just to say that there is a huge challenge in front of us and we have to take that challenge on. Employment insurance simply cannot go on the way it is now. It's a program that doesn't work.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

Thank you, Mr. Battle.

We'll now come to Mr. Komarnicki. I pronounced it correctly, Mr. Komarnicki.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. It's good to see you occupying the chair.

12:20 p.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

[Inaudible--Editor]

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

Excuse me, Mr. Komarnicki.

Your time has run out, Mr. Martin. You're way over.

12:20 p.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

I was just saying that it wasn't me. It was Sherri who had something to--

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

Let Mr. Komarnicki ask his questions.

We're going to have a second round. You'll get a chance then, Madam Torjman.

Mr. Komarnicki.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'll direct most of my comments to Mr. Ken Battle.

Thank you very much for your presentation.

From what I'm hearing, as the economy worsens, poverty tends to increase. I heard Madam Chair indicate that simply transferring money to provinces may not be the answer if you're not directing it specifically. At the same time, unless you're boosting some other areas, the last thing you want to see is a cut to transfer payments to the provinces, as was done in the nineties or earlier to the tune of about $25 billion.

Would you agree with me? You may want to redirect the funding, but you certainly wouldn't want to reduce funding.

12:20 p.m.

President, Caledon Institute of Social Policy

Ken Battle

Absolutely.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

But there are tools to work with. I notice the working income tax benefit as I read your material. In the case of a family of three, I believe, earning between $9,720 and $14,500, they would receive an additional $1,680. In your terms, would you describe that as fairly substantial?

12:20 p.m.

President, Caledon Institute of Social Policy

Ken Battle

Yes. As we mentioned, when WITB was brought in, it was a very small benefit. The maximum benefit for singles was $500 for the year and $1,000 for families or single parents.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

But you would agree with me that the way the working income tax benefit has been broadened and the way it's been applied has done a substantial amount of good towards the direction of reducing poverty.

12:20 p.m.

President, Caledon Institute of Social Policy

Ken Battle

Yes. Although it started small, this budget substantially increases the maximum benefit and pushes it higher up.

The other problem was that when it was brought in it was very much targeted towards part-time, low-income workers, and now we're moving higher up the income scale to get into the main population of working poor.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

In your report, you then talk about the Canada child tax benefit, the universal child care benefit. In reference to that, you have indicated that a significant number of families receive that benefit. You conclude by saying that these are powerful instruments, “not only in terms of reducing child poverty and supplementing the incomes of families with children, but also in its ability to deliver fiscal stimulus”.

Would you agree with me that those kinds of tools are critical in addressing the issue of poverty and reducing poverty?

12:20 p.m.

President, Caledon Institute of Social Policy

Ken Battle

I would agree with you when it comes to income-tested programs like the Canada child tax benefit and the GST credit. I don't agree with you when it comes to the other two federal child benefits that were brought back: the universal child care benefit and the non-refundable child care credit. Those are not geared-to-income programs. They go to all families who receive them.... They have some inequities built into them. The amount of money you end up with varies from one province to another.

Our argument is that we want a single program, geared to income, that provides its largest benefit to low-income families and then a gradual benefit to higher-income families.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

So two of the powerful tools would be the Canada child tax credit and the working income tax benefit. Those two, you say, are pretty critical and are powerful instruments.

12:20 p.m.

President, Caledon Institute of Social Policy

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

When you look at what happened in Budget 2009, as you say in your report, two things stand out. You say that “WITB will pay significantly more to most of its beneficiaries”. You also say that “the program will add more recipients, namely workers earning between” $13,000 and $16,000.