Evidence of meeting #37 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was families.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

François Levert  Senior Investigator and Legal Officer, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman, Child and Youth Advocate
Pat Convery  Executive Director, Adoption Council of Ontario
Susan Smith  Program and Project Director, Evan B. Donaldson Adoption Institute
Cindy Xavier  Executive Director, Adoption Support Centre of Saskatchewan
Bernard Paulin  Board Member, New Brunswick Adoption Foundation
Suzanne Kingston  Executive Director, New Brunswick Adoption Foundation

9:15 a.m.

Senior Investigator and Legal Officer, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman, Child and Youth Advocate

François Levert

That's a very good question. I must confess I don't know the details. As I mentioned at the outset, when people knock on our door, nothing is working. So we of course have to trace the path, the background to the file.

However, I know that the adoption system in general is very well structured. Services are offered, at the pre-adoption, adoption and post-adoption stages. I believe support is provided through social workers and grants, as necessary. In the case of international adoptions, I believe there is a similar monitoring process, but it is somewhat different from that for an adoption in the province.

9:15 a.m.

Bloc

Josée Beaudin Bloc Saint-Lambert, QC

Perfect, thank you very much.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Thank you very much.

Mr. Martin, you have five minutes.

9:15 a.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Thank you very much for coming today and putting some very viable and good information on the table.

Mr. Levert, your suggestion that we have a federal commissioner of children's rights would be a good thing to explore, given that we've signed on to international covenants on the rights of children and have a responsibility, I believe, as a country to live up to the spirit of that agreement. Maybe you can talk a little bit with us about how that would work, the federal commissioner of children's rights.

December 2nd, 2010 / 9:15 a.m.

Senior Investigator and Legal Officer, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman, Child and Youth Advocate

François Levert

Thank you for the question.

The Canadian Council of Provincial and Territorial Child and Youth Advocates has in fact been advocating for the creation of such a commissioner. If you are familiar somewhat at the international level, France, for example--whom we have dealt with in trying to model what a commissioner could look like--has its own republic commissioner for children and youth. This person would likely be tackling issues that have national challenges that fall under the federal jurisdiction, issues such as youth criminal justice reforms.

We know that Bill C-4 is before the House at this point in time. Maybe provincial child and youth advocates can—if I can use that example—weigh in in terms of being the custodian or managers of the justice system within their own respective jurisdictions. However, the spirit of the act and the whole functioning of the judicial act is done across the board uniformly.

So a federal commissioner would certainly be useful in weighing on some issues that have a broader impact across all jurisdictions. How it would work specifically--certainly in issues such as this one--is this person could be weighing in on the rights and interests of all children across the spectrum. Other issues can include anything related that falls within health concerns under the federal jurisdiction or any international relationships with other countries in terms of adoption or otherwise.

I think that the Convention on the Rights of the Child--if I may use that specific instrument--has a broad impact on a number of programs that are offered through our social safety net. We as provincial advocates have limited jurisdictions. For example, we do not have any jurisdiction over judges, over lawyers, over private matters, over legal representatives, over medical experts. The commissioner's job would likely be one who could exercise his role through the power of recommendations such as we do: guiding, assisting the federal government in either developing or improving public policy.

That is mainly one of the roles we play in the province. I spoke to this effect, about working collaboratively with provincial departments in improving their system and being creative and thinking outside the box, if I may use the expression, in terms of developing public policy.

9:20 a.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Ms. Convery, you again--somewhat flowing from that--spoke about the regional barriers that become problems in many ways to adoption. You talked about adopting a protocol across the system.

You also made a comment, which I find interesting, that sometimes it's easier to adopt internationally than it is domestically. Perhaps you could expand on that a little bit.

9:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Adoption Council of Ontario

Pat Convery

Certainly. That's the experience of many families, and part of it is that internationally with other countries, we seem to have guidelines and protocols. We have more legislation, even, that guides that.

So interprovincially, in my experience—I've worked in three provinces in Canada—each province has an extremely good assessment model, and most of them have a really good training model. But to move within provinces.... Again, there is just not the federal leadership in developing a protocol, developing guidelines to support that.

So when we have families—we see it certainly with the military families—who are really at a loss in terms of.... I just had a call the other day from a family who will be in the military here in Ontario for six more months. Should they get started here, should they wait until they move? And this is a family who is potentially a good resource for children in foster care. That's their interest in adopting. And it's a year out of their life when it just seems that we should be able to work within that.

So for children who are in a province where the best family may even be a family member in another province, we can't easily support those transitions. And when families move from one province to another and have gone through that process, if we could look at federal leadership in developing some protocols between provinces, that would give us a lot more resources for children in care.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Thank you so much.

We'll go to Mr. Watson, please.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for appearing today at our study of federal supports for adoption.

So many questions, so little time. I will ask you to be as brief as possible, and it will allow me to get through as many as possible.

Mr. Levert, you said there's a particular interest in international adoptions, at least with respect to New Brunswick. Do you know why?

9:20 a.m.

Senior Investigator and Legal Officer, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman, Child and Youth Advocate

François Levert

I'm basing my comment on statistics being raised to 84%. Why? Perhaps the adoption process is easier than domestic. I've heard nightmare stories within the domestic adoption system.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

The number of foster families is declining in New Brunswick. Do you know why?

9:20 a.m.

Senior Investigator and Legal Officer, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman, Child and Youth Advocate

François Levert

Perhaps the challenge is the lack of resources.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

What are the five- or ten-year trends in the number of children in foster care? Can you tell me, statistically, with respect to the province of New Brunswick? Is that going up, down, is it static? Does the province know?

9:20 a.m.

Senior Investigator and Legal Officer, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman, Child and Youth Advocate

François Levert

Statistically, I would probably base my answer on the past five years. From what I know--and I'm not a statistics expert--I think the average is slowly on the rise.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

Are these statistics collected by the--

9:20 a.m.

Senior Investigator and Legal Officer, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman, Child and Youth Advocate

François Levert

Social development, yes. They were provided every.... If I may, just quickly, every year we have a report that comes out through our office, called “State of Our Children and Youth”. These statistics appear in this report, which is available online and provided by the department.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

So the province tracks or you can statistically judge the trend for adoption as well, not just the number of kids in care.

9:20 a.m.

Senior Investigator and Legal Officer, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman, Child and Youth Advocate

François Levert

Until the file is closed, until the adoption is complete, so that means we have no statistics on adoptions that have failed, and that is of concern.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

Do they track the number of kids exiting foster care?

9:20 a.m.

Senior Investigator and Legal Officer, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman, Child and Youth Advocate

François Levert

They probably do, but I'm not able to answer that question.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

Can you tell me what the average cost of adoption is in New Brunswick?

9:20 a.m.

Senior Investigator and Legal Officer, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman, Child and Youth Advocate

François Levert

That's a good question. I know what the cost of incarceration is--that's my area of expertise--but I can't tell you the cost of adoption.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

What is the cost of incarceration?

9:20 a.m.

Senior Investigator and Legal Officer, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman, Child and Youth Advocate

François Levert

It's approximately $115,000 per child.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

Thank you very much. That could be interesting to know.

You've recommended a national strategy. Would you agree that the focus of that would be moving children from foster care into adoption--