Evidence of meeting #42 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lucie Tardif-Carpentier  Procedural Clerk
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Travis Ladouceur

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Let's resume.

We have a motion that has already been moved, so we will proceed with Mr. Savage's motion. He had moved it on December 3.

Did you already speak to it, Mr. Savage? You'd moved it in December.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

I don't know. I can't recall. That was last year.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

It was.

Is this still a motion that you want to discuss and bring forward?

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Yes. Sure.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

All right. Then please let us know why, and we can have a discussion.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

This comes about because there was a very concerning event last year, when it was discovered that seniors were losing their GIS because it was being calculated differently when money was taken out of a RRIF. It turns out that it was the result of a decision that had been made by the human resources department--either by the minister or somebody in the department. This affected an awful lot of people. It was brought to the attention of Canadians by Gerry Byrne, the member from Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte. We were told it was rectified.

The purpose of this motion is to bring the minister before us to have a discussion to find out for certain if it was rectified, but more importantly, to find out how decisions are being made. This is a department that impacts the most vulnerable Canadians--Canadians who need help the most, whether it's with employment insurance, seniors income, or disability. This is the department that makes those decisions.

When something happens like this, it's not good enough to say, “Okay, we may have made a mistake”. We need to make sure it doesn't happen again.

So I want to bring the minister forward to answer some questions on that and assure us that it can't happen again.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Thank you.

Are there any comments on that?

Mr. Komarnicki.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

My last recollection was that Mr. Savage was going to deal with the motion after we got through a whole lot of business that we're in the midst of.

But in terms of the motion that talks about there being a new policy, of course there is no policy. I spoke about this in the House during adjournment proceedings in respect to question period, saying that there is no such new policy. The change was not approved by the minister or cabinet...overreached its objective, and things were not going to be applied in the fashion that he indicates.

So there is no such new policy, and certainly it's not something that should take precedence in the committee when we have other business. Perhaps for political and other reasons, Mr. Savage wants to harangue the minister. It's not something we would agree to.

It is quite clear that there is no such policy. There is no new policy being put into effect. It has not been approved by the minister or the cabinet. It's not happening and has not happened in recent months. There's nothing new on the horizon that would make it so.

So what is the purpose of the motion? I wonder about that. I think the responses in the House were quite clear, both in question period and in adjournment proceedings. I would say that Mr. Savage should either not proceed with the motion or put it at the tail end of everything else we're doing.

Certainly I would object to that motion.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Mr. Savage, do you want to respond?

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Mr. Komarnicki mentioned that I said we would deal with this after we dealt with some other stuff, which we have done. I don't think there's a member of the committee who has been more amenable to having their motions dealt with in time, as opposed to immediately. I don't ask that everything be done right away. I have a motion that goes back to September on the very important issue of student debt limits. The Canadian government has now had to increase the ceiling--the maximum student debt limit. That's an important issue too. But I recognize...and that's why I want to have a subcommittee on people with disabilities again, because there is so much work to be done.

But this issue is particularly important. He mentioned we could harangue the minister. The minister was harangued, and unless we're going to get a less haranguable minister, we need to make sure that these things are not happening in other areas as well, that it's not happening in other seniors benefits, or in other benefits that affect people with disabilities. This isn't just about that one issue.

He suggests the policy didn't change, but something changed. The minister admitted something changed. And it affected an awful lot of Canadians. An awful lot of the poorest, most vulnerable Canadians are seniors who rely on GIS, who don't have a whole lot else, who rely on this department and the good people who are in it to make the decisions that will serve them well.

It's our job--it's our fiduciary responsibility, I would argue, as the committee that oversees that minister and that department--to find out what happened. If it is all done and if we get assurances it can't happen again, that's fine. But it's not good enough to just say it happened once and won't happen again. This is a big department, there are a lot of people depending on it, and I think we need to do our job to provide oversight.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Thank you very much.

If there are no other speakers, then we will vote....

Oh, I'm sorry; you have something else, Mr. Komarnicki, something new?

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Yes.

The motion calls for a two-hour appearance, when the minister normally doesn't appear before this committee for that length of time, and after the fact in terms of the responses that have addressed the issue. I think it's inappropriate, and certainly we would oppose that motion.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Mr. Savage.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Madam Chair, in the interest of trying to be a peacemaker, which I consider myself to be, if my colleagues on the government side are prepared to suggest or support a motion that brings the minister here for one hour, with a maximum opening statement of ten minutes, I'd be prepared to do that in light of the schedule that we have in trying to accommodate the department and also trying to make people understand that we're not here to be difficult. We're here to do our job as parliamentarians.

If not, then I would suggest we vote on it as it is.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Mr. Komarnicki?

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

I've made my point. I don't think the minister ought to appear at all.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

All right.

We'll vote on this motion by Mr. Savage.

(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

We have another notice....

Yes, Mr. Savage.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

We assume that the committee will be in touch with the minister to arrange that?

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Certainly, yes. We already have a pretty good work schedule established for the next little while, so I would say it wouldn't happen until we get back from our February break. So it would be the beginning of March before there would even be a chance for her to appear.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

By the first week of March?

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Well, we have Mr. Lessard's...unless you can persuade Mr. Lessard to defer his study. But that's part of the committee business in the first two weeks in March when we get back, our first two meetings.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

First two weeks in March.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

What we'll do is we'll see if she can appear sometime in March.

Yes, Mr. Martin?

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

If you wouldn't mind, I beg the indulgence of the committee to raise an issue that's been floating around. Some of us have heard about it via the e-mails that are going.

There was testimony given to the committee regarding the poverty study back in June in Toronto that....

Are you preparing a response?

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Yes, I am. I've actually been wanting to speak with you, so why don't you and I talk afterwards, and if you need anything else, then we can work that out.