Evidence of meeting #43 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was employees.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen
I would like to ensure that everybody has translation.
Mr. Kelly, can you hear the interpreter?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen
If the red light on your microphone is on, it's going to mute the sound. So turn that off, then the sound will be louder.
Mr. Vilven, can you hear the interpreter as well?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen
All right.
Mr. Kesselman, you're still all right with hearing everything?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen
Good.
We'll begin again and have you ask that question again, Madam.
Bloc
Josée Beaudin Bloc Saint-Lambert, QC
Welcome and thank you very much for being here.
I mainly wanted to ask you who should determine the retirement age in your line of work and in similar fields. For instance, a 45-year-old individual could lose his eyesight. His health could deteriorate. A 45-year-old pilot could be forced to quit his job if the results of his annual medical are poor. In contrast, a 68-year-old pilot could be in perfect health and continue flying. Under those circumstances, who do you think should set the retirement age and how should that age be determined?
Fly Past 60 Coalition, As an Individual
The licensing body within Canada is Transport Canada. About 26 years ago, they did away with the blanket age restriction on licences. It was previously 60 years of age. The reason for this change was that they felt a personal evaluation made far more sense than a blanket age restriction. Exactly as you say, Madame, people do age at different stages of their life. Some people may be perfectly fit to fly an aircraft at 70; some may not be fit to fly at 35.
All pilots over the age of 40 within Canada are required to complete a category 1 aviation medical with a Transport Canada approved aviation doctor every six months. In addition, we're required to complete competency tests either on the aircraft or within a simulator every six-month period twice a year, and we're subject to route checks at least annually and any time Transport Canada or a company representative wishes to ride on the operation to observe our performance. This is something we've lived with all our lives. We don't expect anything different. We fully expect that safety is the first issue and that this must take precedence, and we're quite prepared to continue to accept it.
Safety was never brought up as an issue in this question by anybody, not Transport Canada, not Air Canada, not the union, and certainly not by us. I've recently requalified after a five-year absence from the flight deck of a transport aircraft and over six years from Air Canada's aircraft. I was able to requalify on the Boeing 777, the largest, most sophisticated aircraft in Air Canada's fleet. I've renewed my category 1 aviation medical by completing a new-hire medical with Air Canada. It's the same medical they give to 20-year-olds, including all the tests. I passed them, and I'm currently back flying, just completing a line indoctrination with the supervisor on regular passenger flights on the Boeing 777.
We don't think for one minute that we've become immortal. We're quite prepared to hang them up whenever we feel the time is approaching or whenever our medical or physical capabilities do deteriorate to the point.... We're very well monitored. We fully expect that to continue.
I hope that answers your question.
Bloc
Josée Beaudin Bloc Saint-Lambert, QC
Absolutely, thank you very much. You will need the earpiece again.
I think what matters to plane passengers is the pilot's proficiency. They don't care whether the pilot is 30 or 60 years old.
Mr. Vilven, you were let go at the age of 60, correct?
Bloc
Josée Beaudin Bloc Saint-Lambert, QC
How much time did you invest into trying to resolve the dispute?
Fly Past 60 Coalition, As an Individual
I have tried to settle this issue for the last eight years. We have been before the courts, before the tribunal. Unfortunately, having a deep-pocket corporation that is willing to appeal all decisions from the courts and a union that will not represent the older pilots, it has been very difficult. Without the help of the coalition, with the amount of money we raised, it would not be possible for a small group of individuals like ourselves.
Bloc
Josée Beaudin Bloc Saint-Lambert, QC
At age 60, when you were fired, did you meet the physical requirements and other requirements pilots must meet?
Fly Past 60 Coalition, As an Individual
That is correct. On the day I was terminated, September 1, 2003, all my licences and my medicals were still valid. What we call PPC, your pilot proficiency check, which is signed by a representative of Transport Canada, was valid. All my licences were valid. The only reason I could not fly was because I was now 60. My age was the only difference between me and the other 3,000 Air Canada pilots.
Conservative
NDP
Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON
Thank you for being here today.
I'm wondering where all this is coming from. Most people I speak to are looking forward to retirement and all that it brings in opportunity and freedom. But you represent a fairly large group of people who don't want to be told when to retire.
Is it a financial issue? Is the pension scheme not rich enough? If that was improved, would it make it more palatable to retire? Or is it something else, that you just like flying and want to continue to fly?
Fly Past 60 Coalition, As an Individual
I would say it's a combination of all. The pension is good, albeit a little shaky the last few years. The main aspect is not financial; it is that pilots just love to fly. They tend to be a somewhat alpha group of individuals who worked long and hard to get where they got. They enjoy their work and would like to continue to fly.
In my own case, I would have preferred to fly a few more years with a retirement date of my choosing and then continue to fly my own aircraft, which I still do.
The legislation in human rights states that the choice should be up to the individual and should not be imposed by any other persons. This includes the tyranny of the majority. A large proportion of younger pilots would obviously prefer that the older ones retire immediately to increase their own advancement. But they may well feel different as they approach retirement age themselves.
NDP
Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON
That's a fair statement to make.
I'm also trying to find out why the union has taken such a strong stand. I think I know why the company is taking the stand, or I think I do. With the union and the union movement, there are some underlying principles and values. When you go in to negotiate a collective agreement, if everybody's on board and there's solidarity, the chances of getting a good agreement are heightened. So we all buy into that piece of it.
One of the criticisms of unions is that they go to bat for workers who really shouldn't be gone to bat for, because they want to protect the rights of that individual to due process and protection. But on this issue, there's obviously some disagreement with some of the members of the union. Maybe you could share your views of why the union is taking such a strong position.
Fly Past 60 Coalition, As an Individual
I'd like to cover a misconception. Air Canada's pilots union is against our continuing to fly past 60. But this is not the case with the vast majority of unions in Canada, for example, WestJet.
WestJet wanted their pilots to have the opportunity to continue flying past the age of 60. Air Canada Jazz, which at one time was part of the Air Canada family, also wanted to have their pilots fly past the age of 60, and they approached the company. So Air Canada's pilots union is in a minority. Most of the unions want to give their older pilots the opportunity to fly if they're competent and medically fit. We are not in a minority by asking for this privilege.
NDP