Evidence of meeting #6 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was money.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Art Eggleton  Ontario
Hugh Segal  Ontario

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair (Ms. Candice Hoeppner (Portage—Lisgar, CPC)) Conservative Candice Bergen

We will call our meeting to order. This is meeting number six of the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

We are very honoured and pleased to be able to welcome two honourable senators to our committee today.

Thank you, Senators, for being present. As you know, we are studying poverty and the federal contribution that can be made in Canada to poverty. I want to extend my gratitude to both of you, on behalf of the committee, for your presence here. I understand you both have committee meetings you are missing in order to be here with us today. Thank you very much for that.

3:45 p.m.

An hon. member

Hear, hear!

3:45 p.m.

Senator Art Eggleton Ontario

As it turns out, our meeting was cancelled. I don't know about his.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Well, we still appreciate your being here.

Thank you for the work you have both done on poverty and we look forward to hearing about what your report has found. We look forward to hearing about the work you've done. We believe it will make a very valid contribution to the work that's been done on this committee.

You each have 15 minutes to make a statement, and then we will have questions and comments from our members.

We will begin with Senator Eggleton, please.

3:45 p.m.

Ontario

Senator Art Eggleton

Thank you very much. It is a great pleasure to be here with you.

With my colleague Senator Segal, I was chair of the committee that prepared this report. He was the vice-chair of the committee, and we're partners. We go around talking about our report to those who are interested in it because we think quite passionately that it's an important subject for us to deal with.

To give you a bit of a background, over the past two years the Senate Subcommittee on Cities, of the Senate Standing Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, in its study on poverty, housing, and homelessness, has held some 35 hearings, hosted five round tables, and visited 20 agencies in nine cities across Canada. We had the opportunity to hear from close to 200 witnesses, some living in poverty and homelessness themselves, others working for community agencies or serving as analysts in university and voluntary organizations.

Quite frankly, what we heard was appalling. We found that a staggering one in 10 Canadians live in poverty. That's 3.4 million people, the equivalent of every man, woman, and child in Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Labrador, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, and Saskatchewan all combined. For these people, our fellow citizens, every day is a battle with insufficient income, unaffordable housing, inadequate clothing, and unsatisfactory nutrition. Every day brings wrenching decisions about whether to buy groceries or pay the rent, whether to buy new shoes for the kids or make a mortgage payment, or whether to drop out of school and get a job to help the family. Just struggling to get by, these families can't even dream about getting ahead.

What's particularly disturbing is that approximately 800,000 of those living in poverty are children, a statistic that is all the more deplorable given the House of Commons' commitment in 1989 to eliminate child poverty by the year 2000. Instead we've hardly made a dent, with double-digit rates of child poverty in most provinces. It goes up, it goes down, but now is one of its higher periods.

Now we all understand the moral arguments against poverty, the jarring juxtaposition of suffering and want in a land of plenty, the unacceptable toll in terms of lives diminished, dreams deferred, and potential denied. What I don't think many people in this country realize is the economic cost of poverty: how it is costing each and every one of us, forcing up our tax bills, depressing the economy, increasing health care bills, and breeding alienation and crime. Today I want to examine those economic costs and outline some of the measures that we proposed in our report to lower them. Because make no mistake: with the demographic and economic challenges before us, we simply can't afford poverty any more.

A recent Ontario study guided by economists and policy experts such as Don Drummond, Judith Maxwell, and James Milway estimates that poverty costs this country about $7.5 billion every year in health care and between $8 billion and $13 billion in lost productivity. And when you add up some other factors, it brings the poverty bill to over $30 billion annually. That's more than half of the current federal deficit. Imagine what eliminating poverty would mean to our fiscal situation, to our ability to pay for education, innovation, health care, to our capacity to care for the elderly.

A recent report by the Canadian Chamber of Commerce puts the looming demographic challenge in stark terms. As our population ages and the growth in the working-age population slows, we're going to face significant labour shortages. A third of the entire workforce is set to retire over the next two decades. Put another way, we'll have about half the ratio of people working, paying taxes, contributing to pensions and health care as we do today.

In its report, the Canadian Chamber of Commerce also said that in order to address the coming shortages in our labour supply, we need to tap into the underutilized segments of our society: older people, aboriginals, the disabled, and new immigrants. Those are the very groups, along with lone parents, which is mainly lone mothers, that our study found are the most vulnerable to poverty. It turns out the very same groups that are languishing in poverty are the very ones we'll need to fill the jobs and pay the taxes of the future.

So here we have the intersection of two great challenges facing our society: the ongoing economic costs of poverty and the demographic time bomb of aging. The good news, and the tremendous opportunity, is that we can address both at the same time. Give more people a way out of poverty and we'll help fill the jobs that we need filled. Give more people a way out of poverty and we'll save billions of dollars that poverty is costing us all.

Now, it's not as if we're not doing anything about poverty. According to Statistics Canada, we spend $150 billion every year in federal and provincial transfer payments to individuals. That doesn't include education and health care costs. So what are we getting for our $150 billion? The short answer is not enough. Those numbers on children--for example, 800,000 living in poverty--are not just sterile statistics. They are a flashing red light.

We know, for example, that a child born poor has a greater chance of dying in infancy, and that if he or she lives, it's likely to have a lower birth weight and more disabilities. As they grow old, they're more likely to suffer from poor nutrition, poor health. They'll miss more school and slowly but surely fall further and further behind. Not surprisingly, they're less likely to do well and they're more likely to drop out of school. As adults, they will have higher rates of chronic illness. With poorer education, they'll earn less, they'll pay less in taxes, be less productive workers, have more health problems, and use more social services. All of that means higher costs to society.

Our committee also discovered something else, something more systemic about poverty in this country. We saw that decades of social policy-making by all levels of government, well meaning as it may have been, have resulted in two equally devastating results. First, even when all the programs are working as they should, the resulting income is often only enough to simply maintain them in poverty. Second, at their worst, existing policies and programs actually entrap people in poverty, creating unintended but nonetheless perverse effects that make it almost impossible to escape the reliance and income security programs or homeless shelters.

Here's the situation. We spend $150 billion a year. We have almost 3.5 million people living in poverty, including 800,000 children. Now, any corporation that spent $150 billion on programs without achieving its goal would conclude that it needs reworking, and we should too.

There are some good signs, however. During our work we found examples of promising practices and programs--largely community-based--that actually do work, that do get people out of poverty and homelessness. We identify and we celebrate these initiatives in our report. But sadly these examples are pockets of promise in an otherwise dysfunctional system that must be overhauled.

Our committee studied the whole range of income security programs, from tax breaks to social assistance, from employment insurance to old age security and the guaranteed income supplement, and we make a number of specific recommendations--actually 74 in all--for improvement. We've suggested a number of specific changes to employment insurance to make it both fair and more effective.

On education and training, as you well know, success in today's fast-moving job market often depends on having the right skills. Simply put, there is a clear connection between the level of education achieved and the level of income received. Yet here we find a classic catch-22. For many, poverty keeps them from acquiring the kind of education and training they need and their lack of skills keeps them from getting the jobs that would lift them out of poverty.

Breaking this cycle is critical and breaking it begins in the earliest years of life. Study after study confirms that children who arrive at school ready to learn become adults prepared to succeed. Among our recommendations, therefore, is a nationwide federal-provincial initiative on early childhood learning. I emphasize learning, education, as opposed to just day care or babysitting by itself. Referring to early childhood development programs, Canada's Chief Medical Officer of Health recently reported that a dollar invested in the early years saves between three and nine dollars in future spending on health and criminal justice systems as well as social assistance.

We also witnessed firsthand the importance of middle school support for vulnerable children, for high school completion, as well as literacy upgrading for young adults and skills building at every age. That is why we propose offering additional tax support for post-secondary education for students in groups, like aboriginals, who are underrepresented in those institutions, as well as for initiatives that keep disadvantaged young people in school. According to one study, if aboriginal Canadians were able to increase their educational attainment to the level of other Canadians, our cumulative economic output would grow by an additional $179 billion by 2026 and government tax revenue would be $3.5 billion higher. That would be good for aboriginal peoples; it would be good for all Canadians.

We also looked at health, because there's a strong connection between being poor and having poor health. The poorest quarter of Canadians uses twice the health care services as those in the wealthiest quarter. In fact, according to Statistics Canada, poverty reduces life expectancy even more than cancer.

In our study we've also seen examples of tax credits that work well. The national child benefit supplement, for example, is putting money into the hands of low-income individuals and households. As a critical step to eradicating child poverty, we propose increasing the national child benefit to $5,000 by 2012 from the current level of $3,400.

The working income tax benefit, which supplements earnings for those with very low incomes, is another tax measure that holds great promise by making work pay. We recommend increasing this benefit so that no recipient would fall below the poverty line.

Because our seniors also deserve dignity in their retirement, we also recommend increasing the guaranteed income supplement so that no one there falls below the poverty line.

I'll just say a quick word on those struggling with disabilities. As a group, persons with disabilities are highly marginalized. They face exclusion from quality education, have lower employment rates, and are more likely to be poor. We believe what is needed is to provide a basic income guarantee for people with severe disabilities and, at least in the short run, to make the disability tax credit refundable.

Just as the guaranteed income supplement lifted tens of thousands of seniors out of poverty, a guaranteed income for those with severe disabilities would immediately take about 500,000 people off social assistance rolls.

Let me turn very briefly to housing and homelessness. I think all of us understand intuitively the importance of having decent shelter. A home anchors a person or a family. It provides the foundation for higher educational attainment and leads to greater stability in the workplace. Health experts also tell us that adequate housing is a key determinant of health and long-term health outcomes.

Today in Canada, at least three million are struggling to find affordable housing. When I say affordable, I am using CMHC's standard rule of 30% of income. We need to do better, and we need leadership from the federal government. Specifically we recommend adequate and sustained funding through the affordable housing initiative to increase the supply of affordable housing. We need to make the residential rehabilitation assistance program permanent, and we need to make housing programs longer-term to reflect planning and development timelines at the local and provincial levels.

Addressing the issue of homelessness is not just about doing what is morally right; it's also about dollars and cents. The fact is that it is more expensive for all of us to leave someone on the street than it is to provide them with decent housing and support services. Just last week, Premier Stelmach of Alberta said that on average a homeless person costs society roughly $100,000 a year, including health costs. The annual cost per person drops to about $35,000 annually if that person is given a long-term home. These are Alberta statistics.

So we need to do a better job on both housing and homelessness. It's time the federal and provincial governments finally came to grips with this issue and developed a national housing and homelessness strategy.

Madam Chair, in closing, underlying our report is a simple common-sense premise that social programs should lift people out of poverty and not keep them there. It is time to give people the tools they need to lift themselves out of poverty. Poverty is not benign. It affects us all. It costs us all. We spend a lot of money and don't get the results we should. We don't need to spend more. We're not advocating spending more money. We need to spend smarter, more efficiently, and effectively.

In today's global economy, with the looming demographic challenge of an aging society, the importance of creating those opportunities and unleashing the creative contribution of those trapped in poverty is more important than ever. In a very real sense, the future level of our prosperity depends on addressing the current level of our poverty. Simply put, we can't afford poverty any more.

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Thank you very much, Senator. You actually had one minute left, so you were within the time very nicely.

We will now hear from Senator Segal, please.

3:55 p.m.

Senator Hugh Segal Ontario

Thank you, Chair.

Members of the committee, thank you for inviting us here to discuss our report.

Senator Eggleton has covered many of the findings regarding the Senate subcommittee’s two-year study. And I agree completely that, in a country like Canada, it is unacceptable that so many of our fellow citizens find themselves in the untenable situation that is poverty.

I should like to concentrate on two specific recommendations set out in the report. The first is recommendation number 53, which states the following: “The committee recommends that the federal government develop and implement a basic income guarantee at or above LICO for people with severe disabilities”.

For Canadians with severe disabilities, there is absolutely no valid reason for them to be forced through the maze that is income assistance. And even if that maze is navigated successfully, this would be reason enough for the federal government to ensure a quality and standard of living that guarantees no disabled Canadian will live in poverty.

While the low-income cut-off is not a direct poverty measure, as we are so often warned by those studying the issue, it is currently the only measurement we have that provides accurate Statistics Canada numbers relating to this country’s neediest citizens.

Such a move would not only provide some measure of support and dignity for the disabled, but would also be an economically sound decision that would free up the costly bureaucracy that must deal with applications, reviews and evaluations.

Secondly, I sincerely hope the government will move forward with recommendation five, which states:

The Committee recommends that the federal government publish a Green Paper by 31 December 2010, to include the costs and benefits of current practices with respect to income supports and of options to reduce and eliminate poverty, including a basic annual income based on a negative income tax, and to include a detailed assessment of completed pilot projects on a basic income in New Brunswick and Manitoba.

And they have taken place in the past.

As Senator Eggleton mentioned, Canada currently spends more than $150 billion in transfers to people every year, not including health care or education. The option of a basic income for all was first suggested at a Progressive Conservative policy conference 40 years ago under the leadership of Mr. Stanfield. After that, Mr. Trudeau and Mr. Schryer had a Mincome project to try a basic income in Dauphin, Manitoba, which had remarkable success. It was not very costly, but it had the effect of reducing some of the worst pathologies associated with poverty, which I'm glad to discuss in detail if your time permits.

The Parti Québécois government of the day made comments in favour of a guaranteed income, in the final year of its mandate before elections were called, and it was an integral part of a social solidarity concept considered fundamental by our PQ friends in the province.

Donald Macdonald, the finance minister in Mr. Trudeau's government, headed a royal commission on Canada's economic future.

Mr. Macdonald made a proposal in favour of a guaranteed annual income back in the 1980s, as part of the overall assessment of our economic future going forward.

We have evidence that there's a more efficient way of guaranteeing there is no one living beneath the poverty line than what we are now doing. We have evidence that there is a way to do it that is economically productive. We have evidence that we no longer have to subject people who live beneath the poverty line to the remarkable bureaucratic maze of rules they now face.

To cite an example, in my own province, Ontario,

the actual manual of administration for a caseworker dealing with welfare recipients, has 800 rules that have to be applied to every case.

There are 800 rules. We can really have a case worker with a huge capacity,

but that is an unbearable proposition in terms of day-to-day protection.

When you show up to file for welfare in some communities in this country, you are asked to sit down and see a movie about why you shouldn't file for welfare before you are actually allowed to file. By the way, the committee on rural poverty headed by Alberta's Senator Fairbairn of the Liberal Party found that the numbers in rural Canada were actually worse than the numbers in the city. About 15% of the population were living beneath the poverty line.

I know that experts and analysts from the Library of Parliament and others who will say that poverty is very complex, that it is the result of a series of other issues--lack of work, family division, substance abuse, crime--and that even the measure of poverty doesn't allow core policy decisions to be made. Well, if you take the measure of poverty that we've used in Canada for a long time,

Statistics Canada's poverty line

or the Fraser Institute's measure of poverty,

which is a bit thinner, as they say,

the average welfare recipient in this country is receiving $11,000 to $15,000 less per annum than either one of those measures, so the notion that we can't be certain about the measure constitutes a rationale for complacency that I think understates the problem fundamentally.

I have one final point.

From time to time in Canada and in the provinces, there is talk of a vision for society. So if we do not consider the notion of poverty, of eradicating poverty, of reducing poverty, of creating equal opportunities for all, as a vision for society,

I don't know what else would qualify, because for every single pathological criminal activity filling the prisons and filling the hospitals, poverty makes it worse.

I'm not of the same party as our colleague here, and as a Conservative I'm not sure the government can solve all these problems or should even try, but I do know this: we solved the problem for seniors when in the 1970s a series of governments decided that if you reach 65 years of age in this country and you file your taxes, you should be topped up. We took the level of poverty in the 1970s from 30% to about 2.9%. It has now crept up a little.

And all the governments have done it, the Grits, the Tories, our separatist friends, the NDP, everyone has done it.

Why? It was because we had a common respect for our senior citizens, and guess what? If you look at the OECD studies now, Canada is in the top five with respect to how well our senior citizens are doing. We are doing better than a whole bunch of other countries. Where we are doing horribly is in working-age Canadians dans toutes les provinces. In terms of working-age Canadians, we rank about 17 out of 18 in the OECD.

I think the principles are there, and both I and my colleague Senator Eggleton are honoured to be here and are delighted that your committee would take on this task, because while we understand the Senate on occasion can have a smidgen of influence, we respect where the decisions are made and we look to your leadership on this front.

Mille fois merci.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Thank you very much, Senator.

We will begin our round of questions. The first round will be seven minutes. As you know, that includes questions and answers.

We will begin with Mr. Savage, please.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you, Chair.

It's a very great pleasure for us to have the two senators here today. We thank you for taking the time to be with us and, more particularly, for taking the time to do this very thorough study on poverty.

I know Senator Eggleton is a strong voice on this issue in our caucus and around the country. I know Senator Segal is the same. I've had the chance to hear him talk about his position on many occasions.

I think you slighty undersell the Senate. The Senate has done some of the most important work that's come out of Parliament in the last number of years, which has led to some of the most constructive developments in Canadian society. Through this report, combined with what we produce in this committee, I hope we can have the same kind of impact on social issues and particularly on those who currently live in poverty.

Senator Eggleton had kept me informed as much as was appropriate throughout the process, When I got the final report, I went to the issue on basic income, particularly for those with disabilities. Of the two recommendations that you refer to, one is to publish a green paper to look at income support and basic income. I want to make reference to and speak about recommendation 53 and the issue of people with disabilities.

You quite correctly mentioned that we have had a big impact on poverty among seniors. There are still high rates of poverty, particularly for single female seniors, but we've made a difference through GIS and OAS combinations. A number of folks have asked about how to do this for people who have disabilities.

There are a number of very interesting and unfortunate facts outlined in your document on how Canada is currently doing. On page 130, it says the benefit levels for people with disabilities “had declined in real dollars in the period from 1997 to 2005, by percentages ranging from 1.5% in New Brunswick to 19.2% in Prince Edward Island. In seven of 10 provinces, assistance rates in 2005 for persons with disabilities were the lowest they had been since at least 1986.”

We then come to the issue of a basic annual income for people with disabilities. I want to quote one other thing from your article. Michael Mendelson makes reference to the idea that “we would end up going from a class D country for people with disabilities to a class B+ country for people with disabilities—not quite A+ yet, but we would be much better.”

In fact, I don't think Canada does very well in terms of people with disabilities in this country. Could you talk a little about what kind of difference the basic annual income for people with disabilities would in essence make?

4:10 p.m.

Ontario

Senator Art Eggleton

For people with severe disabilities, a measure such as a basic income, as we're proposing, cries out for attention in the same way it did for seniors a number of years ago. As Senator Segal said, we were able to make massive changes for seniors in poverty. We have a guaranteed income program for seniors. We're saying that we know how to do that. Let's do it for the severely disabled.

When we talk about the severely disabled, we use the kind of definition that's used for CPP. I think one or two other institutions use this. It's a very precise definition.

We have to remember that with some training and further education, there are a lot of disabled people who are quite capable of getting jobs or at least part-time jobs and who are able to contribute to the economy. Believe me, through the course of this study, I've met a lot of them who really want to do that. We want to give them that opportunity. But for people with severe disabilities, some people may not live long and some people are not going to be able to find employment. Let's face up to that and give them a decent standard of living and at least some decency in their lives.

By doing that, we would take a lot of them off social assistance. Social assistance is a very degrading thing for many people to go through. They have to surrender their assets and go through lots of hoops and mazes of rules. It's very difficult for many people to cope with all of that. I don't think they deserve that. I think, like our seniors, they deserve something better. It would take half a million people off the social welfare rolls of the provinces.

One of our other recommendations--I think it may be the one that follows it--is that we should work with the provinces. If this is going to be a federal role, as in other programs for seniors, then let's make sure some of the money that the provinces are saving goes to help other disabled people get jobs, training, or whatever support services they need. From talking to many people, we certainly heard that concept, and it's a concept that we're endorsing.

4:10 p.m.

Ontario

Senator Hugh Segal

I would only add that one of the benefits of federal leadership on this issue is that if you think about the transfer programs that now exist between Ottawa and the provinces, of which a portion goes to social welfare spending, a portion to post-secondary, and a portion to health care, and if you think about the implications of those being cut by a third back in the 1990s for what appeared to be unavoidable fiscal reasons at the time, each province has its own matching proposition, where the feds contribute and they contribute. If the federal fiscal system, through refundable tax credits, brought people above a poverty line, many of them would no longer be eligible for provincial welfare, which would then open up the provincial option of using their matching dollars for whatever they want: education, further investment in health care, programs around child nutrition, whatever fell within provincial jurisdiction that the provinces wanted to pursue in their own way.

In a general sense, I am for confederalism. That means that I believe in the equality of the provinces and the federal government, in certain parts of the constitution. If we use the federal government's tax authority, it will free up resources for the provinces and allow them to work towards their own objectives, in a manner that recognizes social instruments, especially in Quebec and the other provinces. The provinces have the right to use them as they please.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you, Chair.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Thank you, Mr. Savage.

Monsieur Lessard, s'il vous plaît.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for being here. I must tell you that we are always glad to meet with people who make a contribution to the poverty debate. I am especially pleased because I have followed your work from a distance, as have my committee colleagues. It is refreshing to see that your analysis and findings are very similar to ours even though you are not of the same political stripe.

You may be surprised, but I am going to approach the poverty issue from a different perspective altogether. As my premise, I want to use a couple of the statements in your report, as they sum up the situation quite well. You said, “The economic and social costs of doing nothing about poverty—more than $20 billion—are more than we can afford.” It seems to me you are saying that we should no longer consider money spent on helping people out of poverty as an expenditure, but rather as an investment.

I will now quote Tom Gribbons: “Fundamentally, people do not want to live better in poverty, they want to get out of poverty.”

That brings me to what I want to say. Just as a number of others have done, you covered in your research almost all the areas where poverty occurs. I learned that Senate subcommittees had studied the issue of urban aboriginal youth specifically. You also studied poverty in rural Canada. And you have just done a study on the ageing population in urban communities.

On November 15, 1999, the House of Commons passed a resolution seeking to eliminate poverty, especially child poverty. Since 2000, things have been pretty well the same. The problem is not that we are uninformed when it comes to poverty but that we do not take the measures necessary to fight it. There is also the fact that some policies make the problem worse. There are aggravating factors with respect to poverty.

During the period when we were supposed to eliminate poverty, we made decisions that made it worse. Housing is an aggravating factor. Funding provided to the provinces for housing was cut for 10 years, during that time. A maximum number of people were excluded from employment insurance, municipal infrastructure funding was cut, a whole slew of resources to support aboriginal communities were taken away, and transfer payments for health and education were cut, while shifting responsibilities to the provinces that they could not assume. And I could go on and on.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Excuse me, Mr. Lessard, you have seven minutes and you have three minutes left, so you may want to get to the question.

4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Yes, Madam Chair, but with all due respect, I can use my seven minutes as I see fit.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

I just wanted to let you know.

4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Yes, I am well aware, and I would appreciate it if I still had my three minutes.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

I just wanted to let you know.

4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

I realize that this is a bit long. I know that you probably do not have the answer here. But I wanted our committee to ask about it, and I wanted to hear your thoughts on the subject.

Have you thought about it? Have you had a chance to think about what we can do to avoid what happened in the past? Are we in the midst of redoing the work for nothing?

It is not that no efforts were made. Provinces were equipped with programs, even antipoverty legislation. There was also a daycare system. Initiatives were undertaken, such as the Kelowna Accord with respect to aboriginals. And then another party came to power and did away with it. That is also what happened with daycare.

I am a bit all over the place in my comments, but I want to tell you that we are up against a wall, despite all our best efforts to make recommendations.

4:20 p.m.

Ontario

Senator Hugh Segal

Thank you very much.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Just to let you know, you have about one minute.

4:20 p.m.

Ontario

Senator Hugh Segal

It is our opinion, as well as the opinion of those who worked on our report, that we need to take what we call the no-fault way forward approach, in other words, a plan that does not assign blame, regardless of the party or the province. It does, however, point out best practices in certain provinces. Newfoundland, for example, wants to take action to ensure that everyone lives above the poverty line. They have done some extraordinary things with the large amounts of money coming from the energy sector. Quebec has also taken some important measures, including $5 daycare.

The green book, which provides an analysis of best practices and mistakes that were made, contains some initiatives that can be carried out in conjunction with one another, as part of a vision for society. Perhaps the best way to put partisanship aside is to work towards a better society by truly improving the situation of people who everyone at this table wants to serve well.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Thank you.

4:20 p.m.

Ontario

Senator Art Eggleton

Do I have time to add something?