Human Resources Committee on Dec. 6th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

We'll call the meeting to order.

I want to remind the members that we will have some committee business in the second round. We will adjourn somewhat early in the second round so we can deal with, essentially, the budget with respect to this study, and I'll have a couple of remarks to make about that.

Without saying more, I'd like to welcome before our committee Gary Merasty.

You are wearing your member of Parliament pin because you have been a member of Parliament, and we've had the good pleasure of knowing you in your past life. We want to welcome you especially, and your wife Brenda and Kim Radbourne as well.

The practice is to have each of you present. After the presentation we will have a five-minute round of questions, alternating between the parties.

Mr. Merasty, are you going to start? Go ahead.

[Gary Merasty, Vice-President, Corporate Social Responsability, Cameco Corporation]

I'm pleased to be here presenting to the members of the committee on the issue at hand.

As mentioned, my name is Gary Merasty and I am the vice-president of corporate social responsibility with Cameco Corporation, a uranium mine in northern Saskatchewan. We're one of the world's largest producers of uranium worldwide, accounting for about 16% of the world's total supply. The heartbeat of Cameco really is in northern Saskatchewan, nestled in among the first nations and Métis communities in northern Saskatchewan.

I'm going to go through this presentation fairly quickly and give you some of the highlights of it; then we'll get into the question period. I'll give you a few stats about the mining industry in Saskatchewan and first nations and Métis employment in Saskatchewan, and then speak about some of our own Cameco experience.

There is a need in Saskatchewan for approximately 18,000 new positions related to the mining industry. By 2028, we are expecting $43 billion worth of capital expansions to occur; that number has actually been revised recently to be closer to $50 billion. There's a huge demand in a number of occupations related to the mining industry, the vast majority of which are in the trades. Of course there will be administrative and professional services as well. As I said, that's just a quick overview on some of these points; I know that as a committee you're very well informed on these matters.

With respect to the first nations and Métis population of Saskatchewan, the proportion of aboriginal people in their twenties is expected to double. Now, this statement was made a few years ago—they said it would double from 17% to approximately 30% by 2017. When we look at some of the indicators, they certainly are on pace to achieve this—and actually exceed it—over the next number of years.

The provinces with the highest percentages of aboriginal people, Manitoba and Saskatchewan, also have the highest aboriginal unemployment rates, at about 18% and 22% respectively. These rates are about four times the unemployment rates in those provinces, so there are massive differences and big gaps in the unemployment rates. Closer to home, in northern Saskatchewan, the unemployment rate is even higher because, as you know, in order to be unemployed, you have to register. In northern Saskatchewan, according to the 2006 census, about 9,000 people are employed and 2,300 are unemployed, but 11,000 are not in the labour force—this is the labour force age population, so the unemployment is much higher.

Looking at the people up there, 86% are first nations and Métis, 53% are under the age of 25—but I think it's more likely that 50% are under the age of 18—and 50% to 60% do not have grade 12. The more remote the location is, the lower the graduation rates are. What's interesting to me, as a teacher in my past life, is the huge re-enrollment of students in grade 10 who dropped out earlier and came back to challenge the system, but then ended up dropping out again. This represents a huge opportunity for some kind of an initiative. High school math and science are lacking in the north.

The main points I'm trying to make with those first few comments are that there is a resource boom happening in Saskatchewan, and for that matter in rural and remote Canada, and there is a great need in the first nations and Métis community and there's a great opportunity for governments—provincial and federal—to facilitate positive socio-economic outcomes. To mining companies like ours, the first nations and Métis population represents a competitive advantage for a workforce that's loyal and stays there. Common interests are great among all three parties. Improving educational outcomes is absolutely key for employment in our companies. Of course, if you increase educational outcomes you improve employment rates. When you improve employment rates you support families and communities, and then you build local economies, so local business development begins to occur. Overall, it begins to increase the quality of life for those communities.

I'll tell you a little bit about Cameco now. As I mentioned, the heartbeat of Cameco is in northern Saskatchewan. The northern part of Saskatchewan is larger than the country of Germany, but we only have a population of 40,000 people who are spread over approximately 40 communities.

The Cameco experience is that we are the number one industrial employer of aboriginal peoples in Canada. As of October 2011, 763 aboriginal employees were employed with us directly, with salaries nearing $70 million. This represents 50% of our total workforce at our mine sites. Since 2004 we've seen aboriginal employment increase by 65%, and from 2004 to 2011 the salaries went from $60 million to the $70 million I mentioned a few moments ago. Approximately 25% of our trades people are northern aboriginal people.

Another important aspect of our company and our relationship with northerners is that we have built a northern preferred supplier program in northern Saskatchewan. We expect that most of the suppliers that provide services to our mine site will be aboriginal-owned companies of 50% or more, with aboriginal people in senior management. They follow our aspirational targets for employment numbers as well.

Actually, 2011 is going to be a record year. We'll have procured services from aboriginal-owned companies to the tune of $320 million this year, and that's only to the end of October. Since 2004 we've procured over $1.6 billion from these aboriginal-owned companies. They in turn employ another 850 people. So between us directly and the companies that provide services to us, that's about 1,600 employees.

How did Cameco get there? Well, we're a company that's been in northern Saskatchewan for over 20 years. We've initiated a lot of different programs that we've jointly built, basically from the ground up, with northern communities. We work with the communities. We take a glass-half-full approach. We work with them, build on the strengths within the communities, and identify their goals, dreams, and aspirations. We initiate a lot of development, such as career fair school visits—some of those standard types of initiatives—but also a Credenda virtual high school, to transmit math and science into remote communities.

We have a very successful multi-party training plan. This is a partnership of provincial governments, northern educational institutions, and industry—us, in particular—where we design courses specifically targeted for our industry. We have numerous other initiatives. The apprenticeship program is quite large within our company.

These are just some of the initiatives, and for the sake of time I don't want to go much deeper in them. The main point is that these initiatives were jointly developed with our partners in the north, and they range from initiatives in the high school, to technical college, to university. We have initiatives in each of those categories.

I do want to highlight our aboriginal skills employment partnership program, called Northern Career Quest. It is Canada's largest program, at $33 million. This is targeted at first nations and Métis employment training programs in northern Saskatchewan. I chair this organization. The original proposal called for us to assess the career goals and aspirations of 3,000 first nations and Métis people, and we were to put 1,500 of them into training and secure 750 of them jobs.

We will finish this program in March 2012, after four years of operation. We'll have assessed close to 5,000 people, so we are way over that target. We'll have trained close to 1,700, so we're way over that target. And in terms of employment, we're at 1,300, so we're almost double the employment targets we had set out there.

This is a great partnership between us and the communities. The communities came to us and said let's work together on this. I can't applaud this program any stronger because of these types of outcomes. Some of the reasons for success are that the training is linked to employment; you can see a line of sight from the training right to a job. That motivates the people to stay in the training and then secure that job.

There is a resource boom, and northern Saskatchewan may be at a bit of an advantage. There's been mining in northern Saskatchewan for over 60 years, so there's industrial experience in some of these northern communities.

In terms of wrapping it up with some of the lessons learned, we would like to see some form of the ASEP program continue. It's absolutely critical.

The big challenge we have right now, because we have filled every entry-level position with northern first nation and Métis people, is to increase the number of grade 12 graduates. We urge governments and local communities to really address the school situation. The time to do that is now. There have been numerous reports done, and basically we can always argue that the time is not now. We delay and delay, but now is the time to act, with those key issues lining up perfectly to allow opportunities for aboriginal people to proceed. The return on investment is huge. We get to retain our employees, and that gives us a huge competitive advantage.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that presentation. We'll certainly make note of your many comments and recommendations.

Now we'll move to Kim Radbourne.

[Kim Radbourne, Executive Director, Moose Cree First Nation; Board Member, SIBI Employment and Training]

Thank you very much.

Good afternoon.

I work for Moose Cree First Nation, as the employment and training coordinator for the Lower Mattagami River project. The hydro redevelopment project is a partnership between Ontario Power Generation and Moose Cree First Nation. I am here through the successes of our aboriginal skills employment partnership program as well.

Last night, according to my database results, our employees are currently at 441 in our database system, and this is just after about 16 months of operation. I believe our successes are really due to and consistent with a number of findings in the business case for investing in Canada's remote communities, specifically the need for flexible and diverse training programs. A lot of our successes are from learning from best practices regionally and across the country, and likely the key to the success in our program is from the integration of community participation in the processes of the project.

SIBI Employment and Training received aboriginal skills employment partnership dollars in June 2010, so it has not been long. These dollars have been an important piece of our training employment funding. Our organization actually began building capacity in 2007, when, in preparation, Moose Cree First Nation and Ontario Power Generation put together a human resources survey for our community and we identified what the current skills were in the community.

The database continues to grow, with over 1,000 clients. From the database we identified four groups that were interested in working on the projects—first, individuals with specific experience and certification—the qualified people. So those are easy. They are our journeypeople, of whom we have very few. We have say five carpenters, one plumber, and two electricians. I can count them. They can go directly to the unions. In fact, with our Lower Mattagami River project, Moose Cree First Nation had the first journeyperson carpenter at site, so that was really positive for our community.

The second group, which is the largest group of workers, is people with experience but who don't have the accreditation. They don't have their certificates, and likely it would take too long to actually go back and achieve their certification. There would be too many barriers and they wouldn't be successful. What we did on that item for our project was to work with the unions to have interviewing and aptitude testing so that these individuals could qualify for employment on the project, but wouldn't have long-term union membership and wouldn't become journeypeople.

We also had individuals from past training programs, who had been trained but had little experience. For these individuals we developed work placement programs. And then we had a large group of people who were either new workers or returning to the labour force. We developed a seven-week introductory course that looked at self-knowledge and community knowledge, and we called it employment readiness. That program began in November 2009, and was delivered to 180 people through 11 intakes since November 2009.

Also, in identifying past training that had happened in the region, we noted that in a past project 250 heavy equipment operators were trained; however, they hadn't achieved employment. So those were our people that we sent to union-recognized training schools to get their certification. And all of those individuals worked at the Lower Mattagami River project at some point, or are currently working. Many have moved on to Detour at this stage.

We used our labour market information from the supply and the demand side, and then joined the dots.

What happened once the project started is that we developed a targeted training-to-employment plan with the contractor, and we've had successes in areas such as cement field testers for quality assurance, rodbusters, carpenters, drill and blasters, cement truck drivers, warehouse people, health and safety officers, security guards, cooks, and crane operators—so very diverse employment opportunities.

The success is collaboration on delivery agents, and curriculum and the training selection with all three stakeholders involved: the community, the industry, and the unions. I think government could be at the table as well, although they haven't really been at the table except through HRSDC representation with our project.

Having trainees do a turnaround at the site or any type of site visit is also another best practice that we have recognized during our training, so that people can see if that's the type of work for them. Getting the contractor involved with the trainees right from the beginning also makes it easier if there are delays in the work schedule in the training-to-employment program because then that trainee feels connected. We know it's challenging trying to work with industry, especially in a construction project, and meet schedules, timelines, and integrate the trainees into that. But if the contractor—and in my case, the union—is directly connected with our trainees, then that frustration isn't there because those people see there is a job eventually coming for them.

I do think a broad-based training program that does not overtrain in one area is necessary for a successful long-term labour force. That's really an important key to it being community-driven and dependent on the needs of the community.

A priority for SIBI is also apprenticeship registrations and completions, as past training initiatives have really focused on pre-apprenticeship models. Through this project, I've tried to look at the successes of past models, and found that we've had very few apprentice registrations from those pre-apprenticeship models.

With the Lower Mattagami River project we currently have through the union registrations and employer direct registrations two mobile crane operators, two electricians, one plumber, one heavy equipment mechanic, so six registered apprentices. Currently, there are also apprenticeship registrations happening at our Lower Mattagami site.

One of the common challenges I was reading about in the report and that I've experienced quite frequently is dealing with the provincial Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities on apprenticeship and dealing with different representatives. There are challenges and frustrations in dealing with the same government but with different analysts and different ideas coming from the offices. The main goal for us is to create a legacy of certified tradespeople from the youth that will be able to keep those skills in the community for the future.

This is related to education. I'm not going into all the barriers that first nations peoples face in education. I think in the last couple of days we've really been bombarded with information that to me are very band-aid solutions—such as Attawapiskat—but education brings all of those issues to the surface, right? One of the things that's been identified and has already been identified by Gary as well is the lack of career counselling and knowledge of opportunities, which results in problems, as I mentioned before, of many community members wanting to become heavy equipment operators because of a lack of knowledge due to the provincial and federal dichotomy.

I think it's really through our local businesses.... Another focus for our training dollars has been on wage partnerships, and that is to really encourage our local businesses to build their capacity. We've also done a workplace literacy program with local businesses. I think that is another area that needs to grow and that can really benefit the individual workers and the businesses. It's through our local business successes that long-term community economic growth will occur. The integration of the community into the project is the key to our success, and this has been achieved by the first nations Amisk-oo-skow agreement, which, as I've heard Moose Creek First Nation Chief Hardisty say, is a treaty-based agreement. It's based on partnership, apologies for past grievances, and a respectful relationship into the future that includes cross-cultural learning through recognition of traditional ecological knowledge on the project, integration of an elders' advisory working group, and then opportunities for Moose Creek First Nation business, employment, and training opportunities.

Specific to the results of the employment success is the integration of our office into the hiring process.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Ms. Radbourne, can you wrap up, please?

[Kim Radbourne]

I am going to wrap up right now--last paragraph.

The first nations employment office.... I think the aboriginal inclusion is really key to the success, and one of those is the employment referrals and how our office is integrated right in the hiring process, with the unions. That's how we've achieved our employment successes.

To me, in this political period in Canadian history, we're in a transition to first nations self-governance. That's what I truly believe. First nation self-governments, provinces, territories, industry, and the federal government must work together to ensure that the socio-economic barriers that first nations face are overcome through targeted, flexible, locally driven training programs that meet the needs of both the community and the local entrepreneurs, and achieve a labour force for large resource extraction projects. This is needed for a positive result of resource extraction in the north with those Canadians who are closest to the projects and most affected by the projects--the aboriginal people benefiting from those projects.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much.

We'll now start with our round of questioning.

Ms. Crowder.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thank you.

And I want to thank you both very much for coming.

You may be aware that part of the basis for this study was a report that was done by the Chamber of Commerce. In their list of recommendations, the Chamber of Commerce made a couple of key points that I think relate to what you both presented. One was that the K-to-12 system needs a strong look because of the fact that you can end up with people who can't go on to certification or trades apprenticeships unless they have their grade 12 graduation. The second thing was ensuring that skills and training programs are flexible enough to accommodate the realities of the communities.

There are a couple of points. You both seem to point to successes in the program. One is that full partnerships with business, with labour, and with the first nations communities are important. The second thing that seems to have been a success is the direct employment link from the training programs for the individuals.

I wonder if you could both touch on this. Are the programs that are currently available long enough? Are they funded well enough? Is the bureaucracy too much?

I'll start with Mr. Merasty.

[Gary Merasty]

Thank you. There are always going to be challenges between the speed of government and the speed of business in how things get done. The closer the alignment we can get there--that's critical. That's one point. The second point is I think the initiatives need to be looked at a lot more closely to make sure they fit the reality that is happening out there.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Could you say something specific about that? Is there something that you would recommend as an improvement?

[Gary Merasty]

Each region is different, but certainly right now in remote Canada, northern Canada, there is a great deal of opportunity, and I think a “made in northern Canada” strategy is absolutely critical. That can address some of the K-to-12 issues and certainly the skills training programs out there. There has probably been no better time, at least in recent history, for all the stars to align to actually make a big dent in some of the socio-economic issues out there.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Ms. Radbourne.

[Kim Radbourne]

Yes, definitely, there are problems with K-to-12, but it is again the gap for adults to return and the difference in programming in urban centres. Provincially, in Ontario it's funded through the school board, independent learning centres, and colleges--all three sectors. Yet in our reserve communities we just have federal funding for our high schools.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

So you don't see the supports for adults who have dropped out of school and then at some point are able to re-enter the workforce. You're not seeing the supports there for them.

[Kim Radbourne]

Not on a consistent basis. The supports become available when the government has pockets of money that we're able to apply for and set up programs, but it's not available on a consistent basis, as it is in urban centres.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but this speaks to the need for a longer-term planning and a longer-term commitment to those kinds of programs, again, driven by the communities. I think Mr. Merasty made a good point around a “made in northern Canada” strategy.

I just want to touch on this again. It seems to me this is a “made in northern Canada” problem. Oftentimes the supports for people to complete high school, for example, aren't there. There's not the access.

Mr. Merasty, you touched on the virtual high school piece, but it seems that sometimes there's a difficulty in having students stay in their community to get that kind of education. Could you speak a little bit more about that, Mr. Merasty?

[Gary Merasty]

Certainly. Having been a teacher in the north for many years, I can tell you there is a high dropout rate in the years before grade 10. As they mature a bit and they want to come back, they usually challenge the high school program and come in at grade 10. I've taught in classrooms where I had 70 kids standing up with their backs to the wall. We usually lost them by the end of September or shortly thereafter.

They represent a great opportunity. If you look at some of the European training models, you see that not everybody is university-bound. If there are opportunities for colleges and technical training, losing that group represents a huge loss to the community. So having some kind of program to keep those adult students who are challenging a grade 10 high school program is critical.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Do I have any more time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Your time is up.

Mr. Daniel.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

My thanks to you witnesses for coming here. The amount of work you're doing in converting training into jobs is truly commendable.

If you were to go to the next level, what are the main barriers associated with skills development? Is it the lack of technical facilities such as high-speed Internet and e-learning facilities? Is it a lack of formal training programs? Is it a lack of access to basic skills and education? Would either of you wish to comment?

[Gary Merasty]

Connectivity is a big issue in the northern schools. The more remote they are, the more difficult it is for these communities to recruit qualified teachers. It helps to have connectivity and the ability to use that technology to teach specialized courses such as math and science, which are subjects not often taught in the north. You need math and science to get into the apprenticeship programs and virtually anything else. The sheer number of dropouts and the lack of space in the schools is a huge issue.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Madam Radbourne.

[Kim Radbourne]

You're asking about barriers people face in trying to go back? There are a lot of social issues, such as overcrowded housing—it is difficult to get your homework done when you have ten people living in your house.

One time I taught in Port Alberni in a building that used to be the residential school. I taught in the college sector, so I was working with adults. A lot of those people had had bad experiences in that building. I wondered how we could expect adults to learn in a place where negative things had happened. It often brought back the experiences that people had in the classrooms. There are a lot of these colonization troubles that people are still experiencing. Some face them on a daily basis.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Once you've trained some of these folks, do they leave the area, or do they generally stay in their communities?

[Kim Radbourne]

I see both. In our region we also have De Beers. When people found employment with the De Beers project, many left our community. It was just as easy to live in an urban centre and fly in as it was to commute from our community. We had some people who would take their whole family and leave. But I think people move back. That was around 2005, and some of the families that left have now returned. People may leave for a while and then return, but I don't think it will create a mass exodus resulting in ghost towns. People have a strong link to the land.