Evidence of meeting #28 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Acting Director General, Labour Market Policy, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
I'd like to clarify. It's not something that's formal.
The researchers take it upon themselves to look at the various components to look for improvements. We do not have a formal assessment that we produce internally.
There are, of course, some reflections that are done every time there is a scenario put out about how we can improve it going forward. Unfortunately, it's not structured in a way that we could deliver it to you in a very comprehensive manner. It's not something we sum up in a formal evaluation.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki
That brings us to another point. If you're going to rely on some type of information and you don't have any particular basis for it, how much can you rely on it? How does it interact with the reality on the ground years from now, or for people looking today at what they may want to do in years to come?
If that analysis isn't solid enough, how can you predict what you should be doing? I think that's maybe where you were coming from.
We may need a better basis than, gee, somebody had a look at it and this is what they thought.
Anyhow, our next speaker is Mr. Daniel. Go ahead.
Conservative
Joe Daniel Conservative Don Valley East, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, gentlemen, for being here.
Along similar lines, do we know how many jobs are actually available right now across Canada?
In addition to that, what is the breakdown? Do we know that we need tons of welders, or what skills...?
Acting Director General, Labour Market Policy, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
There is a new survey from Statistics Canada. We now have figures based on September of last year, September 2011, that give us a measurement of the intent to hire for available positions by employers. We also have in the department the capacity to look at online job postings, which is another source. It gives us a different measure. Sometimes the jobs are posted, but they don't really exist. They're employers who will be looking to fill positions or to recruit proactively. In case they find someone of good quality, they would consider that person.
So there are various measures that are quite imperfect. The results don't jibe. They give us different levels. We know there are many jobs that go unfilled currently. Some are really hard to fill. That points to real shortages in some sectors, occupations, regions.
But in terms of level, it depends on the source. We have a couple of sources that would allow us to provide a proxy for the number of job openings currently in the Canadian economy.
Conservative
Joe Daniel Conservative Don Valley East, ON
Okay.
I have a follow-on from that.
You obviously are posting jobs on this Working in Canada website. My question is very similar to the question from the honourable colleague here. How do we know if these jobs are real, if they're accurate? Is there any traceability that you are performing in terms of jobs posted, jobs filled, jobs not existing, etc.?
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
We don't do follow-up. The jobs are jobs posted by the employer. Right now we use mostly jobs coming from the job bank, which is linked to the WiC website in Canada. That was the main source of jobs for the job openings, which covers only a subset of all the jobs available in the country because it's only those on the job bank. It does not cover all the job openings that are also posted by private owners, like Workopolis or any of this order of website. Basically, we don't have any information on how many people apply to those jobs, and if those jobs are filled in the future. So we reflect the openings made by the employer.
Conservative
Joe Daniel Conservative Don Valley East, ON
Is that something you will consider in the future? Again, do we know if the salaries that are being posted are real salaries, or are they just posted as a salary to attract people and then when it comes down to it they don't get that salary? I think that would be valid information. The skills gap is there because something's not right.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
I don't know if our intention in the future is to track that information per se. WiC is not only about the job posting, but also additional information that is provided by the local labour market. Basically, the main source of data to determine what are the wage rates that people can expect for different types of jobs mostly comes from the labour force survey. Basically, when Statistics Canada is collecting information on the number of people who work in the labour force, they also ask them what is the wage rate, which is the main source of data that is used for that.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki
You're done?
I just want to follow up on some of the questions that I think Ms. Crowder raised, because they got me somewhat interested. The numbers show no shortage in the service sector worker industry in some of the analysis we had done for us, except for cleaners, and yet in my area and riding we're getting temporary foreign workers to fill positions. We hear the hue and cry of the service industry, “We haven't got enough people; we can't find them.” Yet you show no shortage. What's the explanation? Is it (a) because you have inadequate information, or (b) it doesn't take into account regional differences in the country, or (c) whatever it might be? When I look at those analyses, I have a hard time accepting them, based on what I find on the ground in my own riding, in my own city. If we're going to rely on these numbers, why are they so much out from reality, in terms of where I come from? This goes back to Ms. Crowder's question: how do you arrive at these?
So is it (a), (b), (c), or something unrelated to those?
Acting Director General, Labour Market Policy, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
COPS is one approach where we try to develop an aggregate view, where we're looking at the national level and we don't go into the provincial or the local level type of information. It's very limited in that sense.
This is something we provide to partners so they can build on it. It is often used by provinces or local authorities to refine some of their own analysis.
I wouldn't be surprised, if you look at local conditions, to see that what you read from the COPS national results don't jibe at all. This is just national information, which is very limited in that sense.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki
Okay. I guess it's not fair for me to interject too greatly in this, but there may be other reasons why there may be shortages in one region, why people may not want to move, and so on. That's not reflected in these figures. In any event, it is curious.
If you want to add more to that as you go along, fine. I don't mean to take too much time away from others.
Mrs. Hughes, you're next, I guess.
NDP
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
Thank you very much.
We've heard a lot about temporary foreign workers. We've heard about foreign credentials. We've heard about assets. I'm glad you have that in there because that's going to be one of my questions.
Just to start with, I'm wondering if you are able to tell me how many temporary foreign workers we have currently and whether or not this has been an increase or a decrease. Are we bringing in more temporary foreign workers or are we bringing in fewer?
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
I cannot answer how many we have now. I can give the number of temporary foreign workers that came in per year. In 2007 it was 128,000. In 2008, 175,000, I'm rounding the number. In 2009 it went down to 103,000, and in 2010 it was 113,000.
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
Can you elaborate as to where they were, approximately? Was a certain area taking more temporary foreign workers or having a demand for them? Was the main area agriculture? Again, I had a question about how many, but you've talked to me about that already.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
I don't have all the statistics in terms of area. I think we could have added some more details, but I know about 28,000 temporary foreign workers come for the agriculture sector. That's one piece of information, but I don't have the other specific numbers.
NDP
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
I think we have the tools. We could have data for national occupational standards.
NDP
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
Okay. I'm wondering if we can get tables to the committee, the difference in, let's say, the last five years as to what the numbers were, where they were, I hope, and what occupation they were filling. I think that's going to be important to us: is there a bigger demand?
We're looking at a document, “Impact of the Temporary Foreign Worker (TFW)Program on the Labour Market in Alberta”, and they talk about how:
There is a chronic and permanent labour shortage in Alberta. Trying to address it with a temporary program is a stop gap measure at best.
I'm just trying to get some sense as to....
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
I can look back at what kind of detail could be provided.
The challenge depends on how much information you need, because I would like to figure out how we define regions. We can probably provide numbers by provinces and probably by some level of this aggregation when we look at different types of job. We can provide it in different ways, but we can provide you some information for sure.
NDP
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
On that note, is it just the process itself? Do you go back? Even in my riding of Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, I've heard that people have been frustrated with the temporary foreign workers' application process and how long it takes.
Are there some evaluations there as well as to what's going on?
