Human Resources Committee on March 28th, 2012

[Isabelle Blain]

This is not necessarily a new issue. It's part of a trend. The worry is that we're not making much progress. Why is that? The role of scientists or engineers is not well understood in K-12, so they don't necessarily see that as a career. It starts before they get to university, because by the time they get to grade 12, they already know their choices.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Would the cost of getting into a first degree be a factor in deterring people from getting into it, in your opinion?

[Isabelle Blain]

The cost in science and engineering is the same as the cost in social sciences and humanities. The numbers are growing in other sectors within academia.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

I was looking at it on an international basis. Is it cheaper to do a degree in Taiwan than it is in Toronto?

[Isabelle Blain]

There are some countries where there are no tuition fees. Europe has a tradition of not having any tuition fees. It's free for anyone who wants to go to university. Is tuition a factor? It might be. It's certainly not the only factor.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Have you done any work to find out whether the cost of an initial degree is the same, more expensive, or less expensive compared to the other countries?

[Isabelle Blain]

We have not looked at that element.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Given the specialized skills required in your organization, can you provide insight into what specific skills are most in demand?

[Isabelle Blain]

Besides their specific knowledge and expertise, they need communications skills, project management skills, an ability to work in interdisciplinary teams, an ability to work across boundaries and sectors, and business skills. They need the ability to prepare business plans. If you have young scientists who are ready to go and start their own businesses, they need to write business plans. They need to take care of the finances of their companies.

They need all of those skills that complement their scientific expertise and engineering knowledge.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Do you have any idea of how many actually become entrepreneurial and start their own businesses when they come out of these programs?

[Isabelle Blain]

There are certainly some. I'm not sure how many or what proportion do. It's hard to pin down. It's very difficult to get those accurate numbers.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Can you also highlight any specific skills within your fields that are currently experiencing shortages or are expected to experience shortages in the near future?

[Isabelle Blain]

Enrolment is decreasing in computer science. It's not increasing in engineering. Those are highly valued skills.

I'm a biology graduate, and when I was doing my bachelor's degree, one of my teachers told the class that science leads to anything. Sometimes you have to venture into different fields. We certainly expect NSERC staff to have a scientific background so that they can interact with the community.

Education in science and engineering leads.... Obviously, we would like them to pursue science and engineering careers, but they are not limited to the scientific and technical fields as careers.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Yes; it's a pretty broad description when you say “science and engineering”.

Are there any specific disciplines? We hear of many jobs available in the oil sands, for example, that can't be filled by people with degrees or higher education. Are there some specific disciplines you're working with that you feel are in short supply?

[Isabelle Blain]

We try to increase the capacity in all of the fields, because in one way or another, all the natural sciences and engineering can lead to high-value positions and innovation for the country. The oil fields would tend to be looking for engineers, people with chemistry backgrounds, and even environmental scientists.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

They need geologists.

[Isabelle Blain]

They need geologists, exactly.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

IT is big.

[Isabelle Blain]

They need biologists, as well. Really, they need a mix of different skills.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

You're a bit over time.

Ms. Hughes, go ahead.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you very much. I have just a few questions.

In your slides you show that Canada ranks poorly in first university degree production and at the doctoral and master's levels. I'm just wondering if you have looked across the board to see why these other countries are more successful than we seem to be here in Canada.

[Isabelle Blain]

Formally we have not, but informally, from our discussions with colleagues in Japan and Taiwan and other countries, part of the answer is K-12 education and making sure that any graduate with a high school degree has the option of going into science and engineering and doesn't opt out by dropping math and chemistry, for instance.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

You say it's K-12. What is it specifically in K-12 that's missing?

[Isabelle Blain]

I'm not an expert on K-12.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Is it the educational portion, or is it the promotion? I'm just trying to get a sense of it here.