Human Resources Committee on March 28th, 2012

[Isabelle Blain]

We did a study a number of years ago. The pipeline was small, so we wondered how we could increase the pipeline going from high school to universities.

One of the elements, one of the facts we found at that point, was the number of science teachers in high schools who themselves did not have science backgrounds. It's difficult for science teachers to teach their subject convincingly if they themselves didn't really learn it and don't have expertise in their own backgrounds. That's one element where Canada is different from other countries.

It was also the matter of how the careers of scientists are valued or not valued. What does an engineer do? What does a scientist do on a day-to-day basis? It is not well known, so the role of the guidance counsellors is important as well.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I just want to go back a bit, because you also mentioned whether it is valued or not valued. I'm just wondering, when you talk about value, if it is because there is a better-paying job elsewhere than there is here.

[Isabelle Blain]

That could be part of it, but this is really not my expertise. I think I'd be making assumptions. Others might have better answers than I have on this specific element.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I want to add that you receive federal funding. What percentage of your budget does that represent? Is it 100% or do you have partners?

Also, were you told that you would be receiving less funding this year?

[Isabelle Blain]

NSERC is a federal agency. Therefore, all our funding comes from the federal government. We will find out tomorrow, when the budget is presented, how much we will have. Like the other agencies and departments, we had to provide possible budget reduction plans. We fulfilled our obligation as asked. We'll have the answer tomorrow. That is when we will know whether our budget will be cut.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

We'll find out tomorrow.

[Isabelle Blain]

We'll find out tomorrow.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Do I still have time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

You have 45 seconds.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

When you talk about women and how you're having trouble attracting women, is there a funding issue there for them, do you think?

[Isabelle Blain]

No, I don't think it's a funding issue. I think it's more how women perceive science and engineering and the fact that there are few role models.

Natural sciences and engineering make up a very broad field. There is a high proportion of women in biology—about 60% of the people in that field are women—but when you get to computer science or engineering, the numbers go down to less than 30%, and sometimes 20%, so even within our fields, it's a very varied situation. Overall, the proportion of women is very low in science and engineering.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

We'll move on to Ms. Leitch.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much for coming today. I appreciate your comments with regard to engineering-focused employment. I'm an orthopedic surgeon, so I'm a bit of a cross between an engineer and a carpenter—

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

—depending upon the day and the hour.

One of the things that comes up again and again is this real challenge with skills shortages across the country, and our need, going forward, to make sure that all of the job opportunities being made available are being filled by Canadians. We want to make sure that we're actually educating young Canadians and that whether they live in northern Canada, whether they are aboriginal Canadians, or whether they are new immigrants, they are receiving the right skill set.

What do you think are the three key factors that we should be focusing on in that younger age group—I won't define the term “younger” for you, because you've spent a lot of time in this field—to encourage young people to enter into those roles that deal with the skills shortages we are seeing in the engineering sciences? Also, are they a little bit different for the different fields that you work with? That would be one question.

[Isabelle Blain]

I'm not going to touch upon more about K-12—

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

That's fine.

[Isabelle Blain]

—because our agency deals with colleges and universities.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

That's fine. I know that you deal with undergrad and post-graduate education.

[Isabelle Blain]

There's a retention issue. Many jobs now, I think, require more advanced degrees than they did a number of years ago. It's making sure that we retain those who choose to go into physics or engineering 101 and that they continue to 201, 301, and go on to complete their degrees. It's one element. It's more a teaching mission of the university.

What NSERC can do is provide research scholarships to the bachelor's degrees so that they get a taste of what research is about. The undergraduate students research award that we currently have provides about 4,000 of those scholarships, so students spend 16 weeks during the year doing research. Could we give 8,000? Absolutely. Would it be desirable that 25,000 of the approximately 150,000 undergraduate students receive those research opportunities? Why not? We can dream big, right?

Once they're at university, we have to encourage them to pursue graduate school. Having opportunities to learn what research is about is one way to get them to the master's and doctorate degrees.

Second, we require competitive funding so that they don't get into large debt. Competitive funding would allow them to carry out their graduate studies on a full-time basis, as opposed to juggling jobs and studies. Scholarships or funding can be done either directly with the students or through their professors, who then pay stipends to the students. We need funding to encourage students to continue at the graduate level.

The third one would be the breadth. Our universities have terrific programs that provide the scientific expertise and the knowledge to become an expert in a very fine slice of science and engineering, but they also provide the breadth of other types of skills—the professional skills, the business skills, the communication skills, and the skills of working in interdisciplinary teams—that would be retained by graduates and broaden their skill sets.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Right.

I recognize that you come from one of the major granting councils. Our focus here, really, is about getting people into the workforce and not so much about getting people to become post-secondary researchers or people who are going to run a large lab.

What I really want to focus on are the components that would make sure those individuals who are just undergraduate engineers would get out into the workforce. Should we be channelling some of your resources to colleges so that we have more engineering technicians and so they get out into the workforce sooner? What are your thoughts with regard to that?

Don't get me wrong. I recognize you come from a large granting council. Your mandate is to do research, particularly in material sciences, but we need people to actually go out and have jobs in the engineering field.

[Isabelle Blain]

I would qualify our mandate as one of providing people who are able to carry out discovery and innovation.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

That's fine for you to qualify. I appreciate that.

I think it's very important that we get your thoughts with respect to the jobs agenda and what those components are so that we can get these young people who learn from all those great engineers you have on the research side into the workforce not just as researchers, but as individuals who are applying their engineering capabilities.

[Isabelle Blain]

Agreed.

Those skills come from different types of experiences. There are the academic courses per se, but then there are the other experiences that come with the co-op programs, for instance, that combine study with work placement and experience on the job. Some universities really have a big emphasis on co-op programs. The Université de Sherbrooke and Waterloo are examples of institutions that focus on providing experience during the years of study. Summer jobs that are relevant to the field of study would be another way.

What we hear from colleagues and from our discussions with the deans of engineering, for instance, is that often the companies that want to hire a bachelor's engineer require experience, five years worth of experience. How can a brand new graduate develop five years of experience? There's a bit of a disconnect between the expectations of the employers and what the system can provide.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that response.

Go ahead, Mr. Cuzner.