Human Resources Committee on May 14th, 2012

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

The uptake on apprenticeships is of concern. Why they're getting in a little later, I understand that. The completion of them would be a major deterrent. It would impair them in being able to pursue the work. Things like EI would be an annoyance as well.

What else are you seeing beyond those two? Why has the success rate in bringing tradespeople on to journeyman status...why have so many slipped off the road along the way? The success rate is really not great.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

That concludes Rodger's time, but we'll allow the responses to be completed by the parties who wish to make them.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Can I finish that question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Sure.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Are any companies really doing well training apprentices?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

That's the additional question. Go ahead.

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

Completion is a complex issue. I think a lot of factors go into why someone would complete or not complete. The point is let's take down as many barriers as possible. If it's a barrier because you feel you can't go because it's a really busy time, and you don't want to ask your boss if you can go to technical training.... It could be that the technical training is not being offered, that there aren't enough people in that trade who want that technical training right now. It could be that technical training is taking place at a busy period, versus not a busy period.

So many different factors go into whether or not somebody completes. In some trades the movement is important. You have to understand that some employers might think they'd rather keep a second-year apprentice because she's a good worker and they get to pay her less if she's a second-year apprentice. There are reasons on both sides not to go to technical training and progress.

Alberta has done something whereby if you don't progress within 18 months you are deregistered, which is a motivation for both the employer and the apprentice not to lose their work-hour credit.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Does anyone else wish to make a closing comment?

Ms. Steeves, go ahead.

[Jennifer Steeves]

There are employees who are doing things smartly. Those are the ones who recognize the investment versus the cost, and I could certainly recommend some.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Mr. Suess.

[David Suess]

The only other thing, and we've talked about this, is say I'm employed as an apprentice and the employer's work runs out, so the next thing you know I'm off work. I have a mortgage, maybe I have some kids and I need to support them. So the next thing you know I'm working somewhere else, Home Depot, wherever. What's my incentive now to go back to that employer when he gets a contract that might be a one- or two-year contract? I might not finish the apprenticeship, so that's another factor I think we need to consider as we look at this. How can you keep the apprentices employed as apprentices until they finish the journey? Again it comes back to those labour agreements and everything else: last in, first out. It's a challenge.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

I would like to thank the presenters for taking the time to appear before us and give us some constructive suggestions that we'll certainly take into account.

We'll suspend for five minutes before we start the next panel.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

I call the meeting back to order. We'd like to start with the next round of witnesses in the next segment.

We will be concluding this part of our meeting at 5:15 to deal with some committee business. We're going to shorten the time a bit, but we will allow you to make your presentations and there will be questions back and forth. I'll try to enforce the time a little more precisely.

Who's going to present first?

Go ahead, Mr. Montpellier.

[Ryan Montpellier, Executive Director, Mining Industry Human Resources Council]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for the opportunity to be here again this afternoon.

My name is Ryan Montpellier. I'm the executive director of the Mining Industry Human Resources Council. MIHR is a public-private partnership between HRSDC and the Canadian mining sector, funded in part by the sector council program.

I'm sure you are all aware of Minister Finley's remarks from last year and the changes to the funding of the sector council program. There's no question that there will be an impact on all sector councils, and you heard from a few of them earlier this afternoon.

The Mining Industry Human Resources Council is currently exploring all options to continue to identify and address the HR needs of the sector. We're looking at a number of different models to sustain the operations of the organization, and I believe our very strong partnership with the mining association and a number of mining stakeholders will allow us to continue to be around after March 2013.

Now, that's not the purpose of why I am here today. I am here today to talk about some of the labour market challenges in the minerals and metals sector and also to highlight some strategies that are currently under way to address them.

On that note, the mining sector today is really facing a perfect storm, but it's a good-news story as well, because we need workers. According to the Mining Association of Canada—and you'll hear from Paul Hébert momentarily—the industry has almost $140 billion currently in new projects that are in the permitting or environmental assessment phases.

This rapid expansion of the sector will put significant pressure on an already strained labour market. In fact no other sector has added more jobs in the last 12 months, percentage-wise, than the mining sector. Employment has grown at roughly 8% in the past 12 months.

The mining sector is not immune to the aging workforce in this country. About 40% of the current mining industry workforce is over 50 years old. Today we are, if not the oldest sector in Canada, one of the oldest industrial sectors in Canada. We estimate that about a third of the industry will be eligible to retire by 2016.

The loss of these people in itself is not necessarily the issue; it's the loss of the skills and competencies and knowledge that these people are taking with them. We've been throwing around numbers for needing 100,000 workers or 115,000 workers, but the real challenge is replacing these individuals who have been in the industry for 20 or 30 years and have decades of experience in extracting our resources.

Further compounding the challenges are the negative perceptions and stereotypes often held by youth today, and also the nature and the location of mining activities, which are for the most part in rural and remote communities. That is a barrier to attracting and recruiting workers.

Another challenge is attracting and recruiting women. Women today account for 14% of the minerals and metals sector. When you drill down into production-specific occupations, such as miners, equipment operators, and some of the skilled trades, that number falls to under 1%. So there are still significant challenges and opportunities for attracting more women to the sector.

Also, the sector has not done that great of a job at attracting immigrants. About 8.7% of our industry are immigrants, compared to about 20% for the entire workforce. We certainly have a lot of work to do in attracting and recruiting the next generation of mine workers.

All of this translates into a need to recruit what we're estimating to be over 112,000 new workers by 2021, and that's based on a very moderate growth scenario. If we see the same level of growth we've seen in the past 12 months over the next 10 years, that number quickly balloons to over 200,000.

The question, then, is how do we address this challenge? I think the important comment I would make is that the skills shortage.... I've been working in this organization for about eight or nine years, and the skills challenge has always been something the HR departments would deal with. It was an HR issue.

I think very recently it has become truly a business risk, and a risk that is impacting companies on the bottom line. In fact Ernst and Young every year publishes the global risks that are impacting the global mining sector, and the labour shortage is now ranked as the number one risk for mining companies for both the developed world and the developing world.

How do we address this? The question, I guess, is what are we doing as an industry to try to rectify the skills shortage?

I think the first challenge is to make better use of all potential sources of labour supply. You only have to look at your television screens during hockey games to see the ads saying “Come and work with us” from the Rio Tintos and ArcelorMittals and BHPs. There's a significant amount of effort invested today in attracting, recruiting, and retaining a number of under-represented groups—youth, women, aboriginal people, new Canadians—and even retaining older workers.

I think mining companies for the most part prefer to attract locally. When the local talent pool is exhausted, they then look within the province, neighbouring provinces, and the country as a whole. But when talent is simply not available, looking outside of Canada's borders seems to be increasingly what companies are turning towards. To that end, some of the recent proposed changes to the immigration system favouring more direct access or links to qualified individuals entering the country are certainly welcome.

I think the industry also needs to take a very good look at what they can do to increase productivity. This country in the mining sector has lacked in productivity gains compared to other countries in the world. Any investment to drive innovation or lead productivity would certainly be welcome. At the end of the day, we will need to do more with less. People will continue to be a scarce resource or input into the mining sector.

For our part, at the Mining Industry Human Resources Council, we continue to address these issues through strong collaboration with the mining sector. In a recent consultation, industry viewed three areas as being of most value to our sector. One is the labour market intelligence that we've been able to provide.

There's also the worker certification that we've building for the past six years now. This worker certification is for undesignated occupations. You just heard from the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum. That system is working excellently, in our eyes, for a number of skilled trades, but for the undesignated occupations—miners, equipment operators, diamond drillers, mineral process operators—there is absolutely no system or pan-Canadian system in place. Even at the provincial level, there are very few systems in place to recognize the skill sets of miners.

Certainly the investments we've had from HRSDC in the past...and certainly our efforts going forward will be to continue to build a national, pan-Canadian worker certification program for a number of undesignated occupations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Perhaps you could wind this up, Mr. Montpellier.

[Ryan Montpellier]

Sure.

The last point I will make is that the labour market intelligence we have provided has been absolutely well valued and key to our industry. I think the most important element of that is how our industry stakeholders are using it.

The one example I will give is from Saskatchewan. The Saskatchewan Mining Association worked very closely with us to develop labour market intelligence for that province. As a result of that, a number of new programs have been created at SIAST, the Saskatchewan institute of technology, and at the University of Saskatchewan we'll be launching a mining engineering program. All of that is as a result of the LMI that we were able to develop in partnership with them.

I will conclude there. I look forward to your Q and A session.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

All right.

Go ahead, Mr. Hébert.

[Paul Hébert, Vice-President, Government Relations, Mining Association of Canada]

Good afternoon, and thank you for the invitation. I'm happy to be here today.

My name is Paul Hébert. I'm vice-president, government relations, at the Mining Association of Canada, or MAC.

MAC is the national voice of Canada's mining and mineral processing industry. Since 1935, we have worked to promote one of Canada's most integral economic sectors. We provide leadership and we share resources, primarily through three activities: advocacy, stewardship, and collaboration.

We promote industry growth and development while addressing the needs of important communities of interest. It's our goal to ensure that success in the mining sector is based on a strong commitment to sustainability and ready access to accurate, up-to-date information for industry members and associates, policy-makers, and the general public.

We believe that a constructive business environment in Canada depends on public understanding of our country's major industries. We represent over 30 members who are engaged in exploration, mining, smelting, refining, and semi-fabrication across a whole host of commodities, including iron ore, gold, diamonds, oil sands, steelmaking, coal, base metals, and uranium.

As you're probably well aware, for the past several years the Canadian mining industry has been enjoying a period of tremendous growth, even during the economic downturn of 2008-09. That downturn had a relatively short-lived impact on the mining industry. We were one of the first to bounce back, and we bounced back quite quickly and strongly.

A very strong demand for metals and minerals from emerging economies such as China, India, Brazil, and others has created a tremendous opportunity for Canada. Commodity prices for both base and precious metals are strong and are expected to generally remain so for years to come.

The mining industry will always be cyclical, to a certain degree, but the consensus is that the general trend in prices will be positive for decades to come.

All this demand is translating into opportunity and prosperity for Canadians from coast to coast to coast. As Ryan mentioned, we anticipate over $140 billion in mining investment over the next five years. That's a figure that includes investment to build new mines and to expand existing operations across the full range of commodities, in every region of the country, with the exception of Prince Edward Island. I'll save the potato mining joke.

To capitalize on this opportunity, a number of challenges must be overcome. The challenges can be grouped into three categories. They include, first, inefficiencies in government review processes. We've started to see those begin to be addressed through the Budget Implementation Act.

The second challenge is remote regions or inadequate or uncompetitive infrastructure. We tend to operate in very rural and remote areas, and we need railways, roads, ports, and power grids to develop mines and get our products to market.

The third challenge is in the area of human resources and skills constraints.

Ryan has just provided you with a good overview of the magnitude and breadth of the HR challenges for the mining sector. So in the interest of leaving more time for questions, I won't reiterate. I will add, however, that given that the Mining Industry Human Resources Council was one of the highest performing sector councils, the Mining Association of Canada and its members were disappointed to learn of the abolition of the sector council program. Nonetheless, we're cautiously optimistic about MIHR's ability to continue operating beyond March 2013.

Individually, all MAC members are very actively working to address skills and personnel issues within their own operations. However, there's recognition that to best meet the needs of the entire sector, a more concerted approach is required. Our board of directors recently struck an HR task force to oversee the process of determining how industry can collectively address HR issues, in light of the elimination of sector council funding.

The coming months will bring a measure of clarity on the future of MIHR and how industry will continue to work together on skills issues to make sure that the mining industry continues to thrive and grow for the benefit of all Canadians.

We hope that government will continue to support industry efforts to attract, recruit, and retain the next generation of the mining industry workforce. Industry efforts, such as those undertaken by MIHR, which Ryan mentioned, specifically in the areas of labour market information and intelligence, worker certification, and aboriginal engagement in training programs, are particularly useful.

Thanks again, and I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much for that presentation. Certainly infrastructure and human resources are very important to mining.

You can share the potato mining joke with Mr. Cuzner, who will share it with Mr. Easter, I'm sure, in due course.

We'll start with Mr. Lapointe.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here, gentlemen. We appreciate it.

It is important to always keep in mind that we are encroaching somewhat on provincial jurisdiction here. Nevertheless, I am going to take advantage of your expertise to explore some rather glaring problems further. There is a mining boom happening, especially in the northern parts of the country, including northern Quebec and the territories. There are a lot of jobs, and they are often well-paid. Still, the whole situation gives rise to many issues, not the least of which is human resources.

In some regions, we see one thing happening, and in others, we see the exact opposite phenomenon. For example, my colleague, Mr. Cleary, was telling me that certain industries in the southern part of his province had a very high unemployment rate, despite the boom up north and the resulting labour shortage there. In my area, the much talked about Plan Nord is beginning to bear fruit, and we have the opposite problem. In some sectors, all the young people who were trained on the south shore of the St. Lawrence are heading north where they make salaries that secondary and tertiary processing companies on the south shore cannot match.

Sometimes a young person who has just completed a cooking program will not join the tourism food service industry because they can make two-and-a-half times as much in a simple cafeteria job up north. Some industries are feeling a tremendous labour squeeze because young people are going north for work, despite needs at the local level. Other sectors are dealing with unemployment and do not yet feel the difference.

How can we come up with a labour plan tailored to the conditions of each rural area while meeting the development needs up north?

[Ryan Montpellier]

Thank you. That problem exists. On our end, we envision a system where people have the ability to choose where they want to work, in the job market that is best suited to them. The question is this: can we eliminate the labour mobility barriers so people can travel to or work in a region for a period of time and then return to their own communities. Today, the vast majority of new mines are built up north. In terms of the work schedule, people fly in and fly out. They work on site for a few weeks and then go back home for a few weeks.

That's a departure from the past because communities are no longer built around the mine, as was the case years ago. I would say the challenge today is to enable workers to move around freely and work where they want when they want.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I was describing the labour imbalance that is happening as we speak. In some regions where unemployment is way too high, there doesn't seem to be enough solicitation, but in regions like mine, Rivière-du-Loup, we need expertise in areas that are also growing, even though they may be secondary, tertiary or quaternary processing companies.

How do we put a labour plan in place? Forgive me for saying so, but what you are selling is wishful thinking, as if giving people free mobility will solve the problem. We all know that if you don't do just a fraction of HR planning, things won't necessarily be fine.

[Ryan Montpellier]

As we say in English,

“there is no silver bullet”.

I don't believe in creating a system where every industry anticipates its labour needs and then we limit workers' mobility so that we can manage human resources more effectively. If compensation is what motivates them, workers will go wherever the highest-paying jobs are. Don Drummond, the economist, often says

that there is no skills shortage. There is a price that clears the market.

Those who are the most competitive will attract the most skilled workers. All of our research at the council shows there is more to attracting workers and meeting their needs than just money; considerations such as career advancement and safety also come into play. The money will indeed continue to draw people in the regions—

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Mr. Lapointe. Your time is done.

We'll now move to Ms. Leitch. We're running a little tighter in this round. Go ahead.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Great, thank you very much.

I thank you both for presenting today.

I have two questions. First, are there some specific industry leaders or industry programs that you find have been particularly effective in encouraging young people to enter into trades? Can you give me some specific examples of best practices, or specific companies or firms we can look to that we should be examining to encourage young people to enter into skilled trades?