Human Resources Committee on Oct. 6th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

We'll move to Ms. Leitch.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Thank you very much, everyone, for attending today. I greatly appreciate the time you've taken and efforts you've made to put together some material for us. It is extremely helpful.

I have some questions for each one of the groups on the panel.

Starting with HRSDC, Monsieur LaRue, what do you anticipate will be happening after 2012 with respect to the pan-Canadian framework? We do have a set timeframe and, obviously, have moved some professions through this process, but December 31, 2012, will be upon us soon enough.

[Jean-François LaRue]

Thank you very much for your question.

Maybe looking back a little bit, a couple of months ago when we established a list of 14 priority occupations, nine of which were in the health sector, we had those target groups divided into two groups. The first group of eight targeted occupations was scheduled to be streamlined by December 2010. The work is done, and all those occupations meet the one-year time service standard.

Now we have another group of six priority occupations scheduled for December 2012. We're right in the midst of working with those occupations. We are meeting with them, doing national consultations, and through those national consultations we are trying to identify and really understand in-depth their certification processes. And we're working with the provinces in doing that.

The reason we do this is fairly simple. It is because we don't know it all, and we need to have a really firm understanding about how the certification process is working, because from one profession to the next, it's never the same thing.

Once we've completed the national consultation, we draft action plans with each of those occupations. Through those national action plans, we try to identify for each occupation--because they are not all at the same stage of development--what their top three priorities are in terms of investment by government. We get a really in-depth understanding of where they want us to invest.

Come December 2012 we will have this group of priority occupations that will be streamlined—and I certainly expect the next six are going to meet the standards of the framework. I think I was fairly specific in my remarks, and I cannot insist enough, how important the work is that we are doing right now. I think we have the right approach.

That approach has worked for the first group of eight. It's going to work for the next group of six. We need to renew and extend the mandate, because this issue is not something.... There are so many players. I have named 500 regulatory bodies, and we have credential-assessment agencies. There are a lot of players. There are four different types of departments in each of the provinces. We want everybody to keep pushing in the same direction.

I have to say that this approach of taking priority occupations is working. You see the three of us at the table: Human Resources, Health, and Immigration are all working in the same direction. It's very important that we keep the momentum going, and I really insist on that. So come 2012 I'm really hoping that we're going to be able to extend our mandate beyond that period for another period of five years to identify other occupations that are as important. And I would even go as far as to say that it will be very important that we identify appropriately the occupations that should be part of the next list of priority occupations.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

In keeping with that and your comment on all three departments working on this file of foreign credentialing and the qualifications associated with it, how are you working together as three different departments to make sure there is not overlap and duplication? What is the division of labour and the integration among the three groups?

Maybe I could ask each of the three departments to comment on that, please.

[Jean-François LaRue]

I'm going to start by saying that, first of all, it's a multi-dimensional issue. I've explained that there are many partners, especially in the provinces. If you think of this issue, there is the immigration dimension; there is the labour dimension; and there are the education and health dimensions. Various departments are organized differently, and what we try to do is to put all of our players on the ice to make sure that we are all pushing in the same direction.

The way we coordinate ourselves is to have very specific and distinguishable mandates. As for HRSDC, as I indicated, we work on fixing systems. I work with regulatory bodies; I don't work directly with the immigrants and don't have projects dealing with sharing of information. That's more the role of CIC, providing the pre-arrival services and working with individuals directly. And my friend at Health Canada--and she can speak to this a little bit more--is working more specifically on attracting professional health workers.

Obviously you've heard Ms. Craig Garrison explaining how she sits on different committees, and I also sit on them. We meet regularly through trilateral meetings to share information and to make sure we're steering the boats in the same direction and not contradicting each other.

[Natasha Pateman]

With regard to CIC's perspective on that question, we're certainly focusing on the overseas portion. We're trying to make sure that before people even come to Canada they have the information about the priority professions in the framework and know what can be done ahead of time, including whether they can start doing some of their educational assessment overseas, and whether they can start doing some of the licensure overseas. Some of the regulatory bodies do have some programs where there are online practice exams and things like that.

As I mentioned in my opening remarks, we also have the Canadian immigrant internship program, which tries to make sure that people do understand what's expected and what is required before they even come to Canada. So while we are doing the back end here in Canada, we're trying to do as much as we can overseas. And through that program, people come for a one-day course. As I said, it's also for spouses and working-age dependants, who can learn more about what's going to happen once they arrive in Canada and what they can do ahead of time. They actually fill out a form called “My Action Plan” and can start working on the process and know whom to contact. Then through that there's also something called focal point partners, wherein they're given contacts for immigrant-serving organizations in the province they think they're going to be moving to, as well as some educational institutions.

So, again, they can start doing some of their credential assessment and preparing their information before they even arrive in Canada.

Finally, to support the framework, we also have the international qualifications network, and that's a website. We found that when we were meeting with the regulators and employers and all of the different groups involved, they said they just didn't have a way to share information in a fast and easy way. So through this, we're creating a website that's about to be launched this fall where they can post information about bridge-to-work programs or some of their best practices. That way others can go there and learn from that rather than having to reinvent the wheel, and they can also tailor that to their own specific needs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you. The time is up.

You mentioned the work that you focus on overseas, but here in Canada, where do you stop and where does the Foreign Credentials Referral Office start?

[Natasha Pateman]

We certainly work with the immigrant specifically. We provide path-finding and referral services through websites, through connecting with employers. We do also work with employers and regulatory bodies, but it is specifically to try to help the person get to the right space even before they arrive.

So there are connections, obviously, to groups in Canada, but it's to try to actually help individuals find the right path.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

We'll move on next to Mr. Davies, for seven minutes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, I want to thank all of you for not only presenting today but also for the work you've done in tackling what we all know is a very complicated and long-standing problem. For those of us who represent ridings with a lot of new Canadians, I can tell you that this work is not only of an academic bent but also work that makes an incredibly profound difference in people's lives. We have tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of people in this country who are unable to practice in their chosen occupations and professions. They're being under-utilized, to the detriment of their own lives and to our economy.

Here's where I want to drill into. I want to try to start understanding how effective we are. From my quick adding up of the numbers, it looks like we've spent about a quarter of a billion dollars since 2003 in various programs. I'd like to get a bit of a snapshot for where we're at.

You identified the 14 occupations in the framework from 2009, and a document that was prepared for us says, “The Framework’s principles are to apply to these occupations to ensure a more rapid recognition of credentials.” Can you tell us whether you have a handle on how many people actually have had their credentials recognized as a result of that framework in those 14 occupations?

[Jean-François LaRue]

Part of the commitment of the framework is obviously to measure the metrics of what we are trying to achieve. There's an FCRO report that was released on August 18 that contains some of the success stories and the highlights.

In terms of specific numbers tied to an occupation, what we tried to do with the list of 14 priority occupations, which was a fairly complex process, was the following. First, we negotiated with the provinces, and through their sources of data, for example, identified from a simulation model where we were going to have lots of job vacancies and shortages. Then what we tried to do with the select group of 14 occupations was to make sure that we covered as broad a base as possible, as representative a base as possible, of the occupations principally associated with those who are coming here as skilled workers.

If you ask me for a specific number, I don't have it. But the idea is really to cover as broad a base as possible, representing those who are coming to this country, so that we're able to help them. If an occupation is mainly dominated by the Canadians who are here, and there are not a lot of immigrants coming from any source country, it's not on our list, for obvious reasons.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

The federal training program for newcomers is overseen by FCRO. It allows newcomers to Canada to try to take advantage of a Canadian work experience in the public service. It's said that about 11 federal departments are involved and that 20 departments, agencies, and crown corporations have expressed interest in the recruitment process in September 2011. Do we have any numbers there? How many people have received jobs through that program?

[Natasha Pateman]

We have informal numbers, because it is a new pilot that we're trying. This is now the second year, so we've only had one year with it. But last year, there were 50 people and, I believe, 20 actually were accepted in the public service once they became Canadians and applied externally to the public service. So in a year and a half, we've heard there are 12 who have been accepted into the public service, once they became Canadians and applied to external competitions.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

Challenge exams are one way I've heard that people can qualify for occupations. If you're a dentist who trained in the United States and practised there for 10 years and you want to come to Canada, one thing is to be able to write a challenge exam. They don't need more education; they don't need to go to school.

Of the 14 occupations in the framework—engineers, dentists, nurses, physicians—how many of those, if any, have challenge exams so that someone can come here, write an exam, pass it, and then be prepared to work?

[Jonathan Wells, Director, Operations, Labour Market Integration, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development]

If you mean, by challenge exam, a national entry-to-practice licensing exam, you'd be looking at in the neighbourhood of 13 out of 14.

What we're trying to do in many cases, to use your example of dentists, is to bypass an exam. Dentists in the United States, for example, have a mutual recognition agreement. So in many cases, a dentist trained from an accredited program in the United States would bypass the exam process. And those are the types of paths we're looking at developing. The national licensing—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Can I interrupt you for a second and ask about that, because it was very interesting to me?

Who reached that agreement regarding dentists? How did it happen that a dentist in the States could bypass that agreement and practise here? Who were the parties to that agreement?

[Jonathan Wells]

They would be the Canadian Dental Regulatory Authorities Federation and their American counterpart. That's a profession-to-profession mutual recognition or reciprocity agreement. There's a variety of those in the professions, providing one vehicle by which people can gain access. It's an express route of sorts. That's certainly an option that's being explored actively under the framework implementation.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I'm interested in finding out how successful the internationally educated health professionals initiative, launched in 2005 with $75 million, has been. I'm sorry to be blunt in my questions, but I'm trying to understand how many health professionals you estimate are working today in Canada after having their credentials recognized through that program?

[Margo Craig Garrison]

Thank you for your question.

We don't have a precise number. I wish I did have a precise number to give you. We have proxy information about the increases in the numbers of internationally trained nurses, for example, who are currently employed in Canada as well as international medical graduates. There's been an increase in both of those professions as a percentage of the overall workforce in both of those occupations. Unfortunately, I don't have an exact number that I could point to for each occupation.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I'm wondering if there is any way we could maybe improve our ability to track that. It seems that we're spending a lot of money and engaging in a lot of work. I recognize there's some lack of precision to be sure, but is there some way we could start to find out how effective these programs are?

[Jean-François LaRue]

Thank you for your question.

I couldn't agree with you more that reporting and tracking of performance is really important. That's why it's a fundamental pillar of the framework. We also have to acknowledge that we've only produced our first report on the framework this year. As you well know, whatever sources of data we can access, there's always a certain time lag in being able to observe changes in volume and composition.

I did some national consultations with the engineer's group, and it's been really fascinating to have worked with Engineers Canada since 2003. One of the things they said to us was that, “You think you care about this issue, but we care more than you do. Do you want to know why?” It was because there are some provinces who certify more people coming from abroad than they have coming out of school in the province. This is how important it is to them. So it's not just important for us, but also for the regulators. It's a very important issue for them.

One thing I did note is that the longer you work with an occupation, the more likely the mindset of that regulator will change. Here, I will say that we were speaking a couple of minutes ago about the dental profession. I have to say that I am absolutely thrilled and excited about our achievement with dentists. I can give you the number of how many were assessed appropriately before, when we didn't have a process. It was a very quick process; you would say to them that they could go back to school for two years—and that was it. But now, we're going to have an actual process that looks at their credentials, and that's a direct result of the framework. That we can measure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you. Your time is up.

I think this would be an appropriate place to suspend for five minutes before we carry on with our next round. So that's what we'll do. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Having had the break, we'll continue with questioning, starting with Mr. Shory.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thanks to the witnesses for coming and giving us wonderful presentations, I would say, in really simple language.

Mr. Chair, I will tell you this. I have lived through the foreign credential recognition problems. When I came to Canada from India in 1989, I had been a lawyer for nine years and it took me six to seven years to get back into my profession.

Things have changed. I have to say that the leadership role taken by our Conservative government has changed the dynamics of the whole game. The CIC took this pre-arrival orientation, for example, and through HRSDC a couple of years ago, we took this leadership with a pan-Canadian framework process. All of this has helped. In my own profession today, things have drastically changed, I would say. It doesn't take that long now.

And of course I agree with you that this is a complex matter, with all kinds of regulatory bodies and departments having to work with each other. It is not a simple and straightforward process.

But one thing struck me, Mr. LaRue, in your presentation on page 5, where you said that “Common key messages delivered at these meetings identified...increased availability of supervised work placements....” That line I like.

I'm from Calgary, Alberta. I have heard some people say that the safest place to have a heart attack in Alberta might be the back seat of a taxi. The chances are that it is a doctor who is driving that car—which to an extent is true. But it is very serious, though. Keeping that in mind, and at the same time that the demand for that particular profession is high, I will pose my questions, and anyone can elaborate on them.

My number one question would be, what is Health Canada doing to help foreign-trained doctors get licensed and integrate into our health workforce? I have heard from quite a few doctors that there is a process of foreign qualification assessment. They are told to pass some exams. They do pass their exams. They invest their money. Ultimately, some of them are not successful in getting residency. So there is a practical pathway, and I believe, working with provinces and territories, that is also their goal. I can also see the will of provinces and the territories when they work on the framework that, ultimately, we'll be able to resolve that issue also.

So is the federal government doing anything to address that residency challenge?

[Jean-François LaRue]

I'm going to let my colleague from Health Canada answer the question, but I'd like to thank you for it. I certainly observe that you're one of the living reasons we're doing all the work that we're doing, and we're very proud to be here today.