Human Resources Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2012

[Darlene Ryan]

I agree with my husband in the sense that it should be spaced out. The way the justice system works, not to hurt the case, you don't know how your child died; you just know they passed away. We found out 18 months later, through the coroner's report, live, in court with everybody else. Because we were reserving as much time off as possible, and there was a two-day break in court, we found out how our child died and we went back to work the next day, and then we had to take another day off because the court started up again. Obviously we didn't even last the day. We tried, but we couldn't do it.

In some cases, I think it's hard to measure how much time would be enough. For some people, it'll never be enough. It's a case-by-case scenario, but we have to start at some point.

If I could just add to one of the comments that was made regarding the same question, it's admirable that you want to add spouses or siblings to be eligible for these measures. I was Brigitte's step-mother. According to how C-44 is written right now, I wouldn't be eligible for that help, but that's okay. The main thing is that you have parents who are going to be in need of it now. It's an urgent measure that should be passed, and in my case, if my husband at least had been at home taking care of the children, taking care of other things, it would have alleviated part of my burden. I wouldn't have been A-one—far from it—but it would have taken such a load off my shoulders. I would have been better able to at least concentrate on some things, instead of trying to patch holes all over the place. So it's okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Cleary, your time is up. We will get to Mr. Sullivan in the next round.

I'm wondering if I can abridge the rounds a little bit to perhaps four minutes, starting with Mr. Mayes, as we want to be able to finish on time.

Mr. Mayes, for four minutes.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

I just want to echo what Mr. Lapointe said earlier to the previous witnesses, that it takes a lot of strength and courage to come here. You're not only presenting your story, but you're also representing others who have stories that are similar to yours. So I thank you for that, for being here.

I just want to go on record in saying that our government's focus has been to support the victims of crime. We have put forward various pieces of legislation to do just that. We're sending a message to Canadians that victims of crime are the innocent. The offenders are the guilty. I think that's an important definition of our government and where our focus is. This is just one of the many pieces of legislation we have put forward to address crime and also to protect victims.

One thing we talked about earlier was other support from provincial governments and maybe even community groups, local government or community groups, that come around to add support. I just want to go on record, too, and say that the thought of the possibility of provinces taking the proceeds of crime, when they capture these bad guys and then sometimes have assets that they can sell....

When they sell those proceeds, and they have moneys, they have finances, I really do think it would be great for the provinces to take those dollars and use them for victims' support services. I think it would be just a great initiative for the provinces to take, and I wanted to go on record in saying that.

Has your experience with the justice system and with those who enforce our laws been a good experience? Have they supported you? Have they had the resources to support you through some of the challenges you were facing as they were doing their investigations, or as they were proceeding through the court system?

[Christiane Sirois]

Not really. I should even add that the parents of victims, as well as their brothers and sisters, lose a part of their dignity. My son has never been found, and that is a question all across Quebec. People even say that it's strange and wonder if a parent is guilty. I did not really get support.

As I said a little earlier in my testimony, we asked for last-resort assistance. I was even told at one point that I should roll up my sleeves and live my day-to-day life. It's easy to say when you're not going through this kind of tragedy. I understand it, but children are left behind. These children experience this very profoundly. I have to say that this is collaterally destructive.

There was some discussion earlier about Ms. Hotte's fibromyalgia. My daughter has it. She is 35 years old and is starting her life. When she was seven years old, her life was turned upside down. My daughter found herself in a pit of emotion, and the system does not understand what she is going through.

So I congratulate the federal government for offering this kind of help to future victims. The saddest thing in this story are those who are left behind.

[Céline Hotte]

There are also medical costs that had to be paid because of my illness. I tried to get help for that. I was refused, just like that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Mr. Mayes. Your time is up.

If others have comments, you can maybe put them forward when we go to the next round.

Mr. Sullivan, go ahead.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses. I can't say enough about how courageous you all are to come here and bare the darkest parts of your lives for the rest of the world to gain from your tragedies. You've just done an amazing feat, and I really appreciate it, as do all Canadians, because you will help us craft this bill to make sure it's as good as we can make it.

I've heard from you and from people before that the process you go through is not prescriptive. Somebody can't write down in a book that says this is going to take 104 weeks, or 35 weeks. The numbers thrown out there are random. I'm guessing that some flexibility would go a long way toward allowing you the ability to deal with events as they come throughout the tragedy you've gone through. Am I gathering that correctly?

[Bruno Serre]

I think that would be a very good thing.

For example, if this happened to someone and, after 10 weeks, they felt ready, they could return to work. In my case, I went back after five weeks, but I wasn't really capable.

So it would help to have hours or weeks banked. Five probably would have been used and then there would be 30 left, which could be used over the years. But there should be no expiry date. For example, it could be decided that the recipient would have one year to use these 35 weeks, as is sometimes the case in the government. Instead, this should be spread out over two or three years. Some trials can take place three years later.

If someone has used all the weeks and the trial comes up, that person will relive the tragedy. When the trial comes up, you relive the day when you learned about the death of your loved one. So there are other steps to take. If the person doesn't have any weeks left, he or she will have to go through the same situation again that happened at the very start. That person will be lost and unable to work.

Being able to bank the weeks for later would be a very good solution.

[Darlene Ryan]

I would agree wholeheartedly. I can truly speak from experience. You go through a roller coaster of emotions, and no two people go through it at the same time. It's not something that can be foreseen. As long as there is some flexibility, I think that would be a great help to families.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

Ms. Sirois.

[Christiane Sirois]

My answer is yes, without hesitation. I support what Mr. Serre said: there should be banked hours, should a person need them.

This doesn't apply for me. I haven't found my son, but I can put myself in the shoes of people who have found their child. I do not dream about finding him alive after 28 years, you can be sure. But I understand. I am suspended. What will happen when I find his little eight-year-old body or what's left of it? This will happen one day, for sure. I will relive 28 years stored up in my memory. It is important to be prepared for this, that is certain.

That is why it is crucial that these victims have a minimum amount of financial assistance to help them survive. Because listen carefully: you don't really live with this, but you survive.

[Céline Hotte]

It's sort of the same thing for me. For 10 to 17 years after the events, I had to deal with the perpetrator's parole requests and the issue of halfway houses. To contest these requests, you need to put together a file. This takes signatures from people in the village where he lived. This isn't easy to do. You also have to read about everything he did in prison. This isn't easy. You cannot talk to him—that's not what I wanted to do anyway. You have to read the reports. He never followed the recommendations. Each time, it put me right back into the situation I had gone through.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Mr. Sullivan.

Mr. Cuzner, did you have some questions you'd like to put?

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Yes, I do, and I want to thank everybody for being here.

I want to make a comment first, Mr. Chair. I heard something from Ms. Ryan that I know I've never heard in my household before, and I've been married for 28 years. She said, “I'd like to agree with my husband”, and I don't think I've ever heard that in 28 years, so...

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Darlene Ryan]

I don't say it that often.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I certainly appreciate the fact that, when a family goes through this, the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual impact on a family must be devastating, and I appreciate your coming here to share your stories.

I want to ask a question that I probably know the answer to. Had you lost Brigitte, had this happened three years later and she was 20 years old, would you be any more devastated?

[Bruno Serre]

Just as much. A child remains a child, whether the child is 2 months old or 24 years old. She was 17 years old, and she was my baby. If she had been 20, she still would have been. At 30 years old, she would also have been my baby.

The way we love or treat a child is not a question of age. As was said earlier about the victims, I am a victim now and I will always be. It will not stop.

This is why, when we are asking if it is possible to determine a period, I say that, until I die, I will be a victim of the death of my daughter. I have learned to live with it, but it's always there. If I live to be 105, I will be a victim until I'm 105.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

That underlines an amendment or a suggestion brought forward by Ms. O'Sullivan as well. Your suggestions on the flexibility of the legislation are very well founded, and we'll look forward to supporting flexibility within this legislation as it moves forward.

Now, Brigitte was 17, and you had another son or daughter who was 20 at the time? Were they working at the time? The other suggestion was to extend this to spouses or siblings. Could you give us a little bit of an outline as to how the 20-year-old responded at the time and some of the challenges they may have had?

[Bruno Serre]

We were a blended family, as many families are these days. She had three children, and I had two. At the time of her death, Brigitte was living in Montreal with her 20-year-old sister. She was the one who got Brigitte the job at that place because she worked there herself. The day of the tragedy, if the police had not been there, she would have been the one to find her sister on the ground. That morning, she came in half an hour earlier just to be able to speak to her sister. When she arrived, the police prevented her from entering.

I had difficulty with it. She withdrew. Nothing came out. She did not speak and avoided everyone. She retreated into herself, into her own bubble and was mute. We had difficulty approaching her. She did not want to talk about this.

The assistance measures should not be just for the parents. Her closest sister and the other children all experienced this tragedy. The youngest got into all kinds of bad things. She got involved in drugs. That was her outlet. She dropped out of school. She sorted herself out, but this is the type of thing that we had difficulty monitoring because we were dealing with a serious tragedy. The children had no support. So, unfortunately, they were left to their own devices. I take some of the blame. I should have been there, but I wasn't. You know, after a day of work, you're burnt out.

This legislation will help parents greatly. It will probably save families. I should mention that a lot of families break up. In many families, children commit suicide after the death of a brother or sister. Certainly, legislation like this will help everyone. If it can be extended to people close to the victim, children for example, the step-mother and step-father, that would be good.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Mr. Serre, for sharing some of those very personal comments.

I had skipped over Mr. McColeman, but he assures me he has a brief comment he'd like to make. I think it would be appropriate for him to do so.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

I wish to echo everything that's been said.

I also wish to add something to it from today's testimony because this is a very emotional and difficult situation. Sue O'Sullivan said something previously, and I believe you were in the room during her presentation. I agree that every situation is different and that there is not a one-size-fits all. She said something about the mandate of the advocacy is to promote the basic principles of justice for victims of crime.

I'd appreciate it, if it's within your ability, to express to us, perhaps in writing because this committee meeting is over time right now, what you believe those basic principles are, as parents. As parents today, our biggest question is, why me, why us? There is no human understanding of this, and nothing that another human being is going to say that's going to suffice in your lives. Your courage is amazing. If I may say, I believe that you're honouring your children with your strength in being here today.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that intervention.

Thank you for sharing your stories and really playing a part in making things better for others who are going through, or will go through, some of the things that you have been through. In a way, talking about it and hearing others talk about it is a bit of a healing process in itself. It's something that helps all of us.

Once again, thank you very much for coming.

With that, we'll suspend the meeting.

[Proceedings continue in camera]

[Public proceedings resume]

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

We have before us Mr. Cuzner's motion, which was introduced some time ago.

Yes, Mr. Cuzner.