Human Resources Committee on Nov. 27th, 2012

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

As I see it, some of the challenge is in the communication of the opportunities in the trades, not only to potential students but also to the educators in the system.

I don't know if you have seen the ads Rio Tinto put out highlighting some of the opportunities in the mining industry. We had the Canadian Electrical Association here, and they were talking about having billions of dollars' worth of work to be done. I would question why they wouldn't spend millions of dollars advertising and communicating the opportunities they have. I think there is a need for visibility of the opportunities in the trades to get young people interested. I'd like to have some comments in that regard.

Ms. Anson-Cartwright, you mentioned that the trades are the only careers for which business has to pay for the cost of the training. Actually, articling in accounting and the legal profession, interning in the health sector, and practicums for education and nursing are all part of that too. It's not just the trades. There is a cost to business.

The other issue is communication and funding. We always refer to government funding. I don't like saying “government funding”. I like to say “taxpayer funding”, because that's where it's coming from. We have to look at the use of taxpayers' dollars.

One of the things I want to throw out there—this is not a government policy; it's a new idea—is looking at trying to raise funding to pay for these apprentices when they go through these lapses in employment or the challenges Mr. Cuzner mentioned. What about an up-charge on the employer EI premiums that would be pooled for that particular purpose? That's just an idea.

Can you tell me of any ways we can find so that industry pays for the cost of this training and helps meet those funding needs?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Who would like to start?

[Shabbir Hakim]

Maybe I'll respond to a couple of those items.

Talking about communication, I support that 100% in the sense that we don't do enough of that in trying to convince young folks to come into the industry. I think the bigger problem and the issue that exists is retention, keeping these young folks who come into the apprenticeship programs for longer periods of time.

We have found through our experience, and I'll speak on behalf of the oil sands industry, which I represent, and the large employers that are part of that, whether they are construction employers or owners of the oil sands projects themselves, they recruit and keep apprentices on a long-term basis, an ongoing basis, on a 12-month approach.

In a typical construction industry, the contractors who work on these owner sites are completely dependent, obviously, on the nature of the work that's coming up. It's very cyclical. As everybody in this room knows, construction work can be very cyclical. Putting aside the residential and commercial aspects of the business that exist, on the industrial projects, the nature of the work is such that it does happen between different periods of time.

The owners, then, by the same token do employ a significant number of apprentices and have over the years. As a matter of fact, the three large owners who I represent through ACTIMS and CISAA—Suncor, Syncrude, and Shell—are all significant owners in Alberta in the oil sands business. Along with that, they do have a significant portion.... I could go into statistics. I have all kinds of paperwork here, but I don't think we have enough time to do that. But outside of that, I believe that the contractor side becomes a bit of a challenge, of course, because if there's no work available, they have to reduce the workforce, and if they have to reduce the workforce, obviously people do get affected by that.

Unfortunately the way our system is set up at the present time, there is no particular requirement to keep certain levels of apprentices, if you know what I mean. If you go through first year, second year, third year, fourth year, we don't currently have a mechanism that says that you will keep x number of first years, and x number of second years, third years, or fourth years.

Those are the issues we face. Those are structural issues that need to be addressed probably at the provincial level, obviously. Apprenticeship is provincially driven from that perspective. However, I do believe there is an opportunity through the federal government, through that process, to have a dialogue and to create an atmosphere that allows for that kind of mobility between different levels and for some opportunities for retention.

I'd like to touch on one point that Madam Charlton made about the Hamilton situation, where you have large employers who manage to keep their apprentice labour force on for longer periods of time. I believe that still exists. As a matter of fact, within the large organizations, it still occurs. We've seen many folks graduate from the apprenticeship programs at the large owners' projects. We're talking not about one or two or three but about hundreds of people who have gone through that system. The same folks today are either working in journeypersons' jobs that exist or they're working in jobs that are associated with creating jobs through their own businesses, etc. A lot of that does go on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Mr. Hakim, Mr. Mayes' time has run out and your time has run out. You can probably answer one of the next questioners to conclude what you wanted to say.

We'll move to M. Lapointe.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Chair, even though my English is not bad, I will speak in French.

I thank our witnesses for their very useful testimony.

You may recall that in 2007, when you were driving along a highway in Quebec or elsewhere, there were signs that said quite plainly that Saint-Hyacinthe needed 24 plumbers, or 24 electricians, immediately. This was just before the crisis.

I know, for having read certain studies, that tens of billions of dollars in economic activity were lost because we were not ready in 2007. To my knowledge, according to the studies that were done, even though a few years have now passed, we are not in a much better position.

Like everyone else, I want to see economic recovery. When we see a continental economic recovery, and perhaps a global one, I think that we will be facing the same problem. Tens of billions of potential projects will not be launched because we will not have the necessary human resources. In my opinion, after less than a year of economic recovery, we would be facing the same problem.

We are talking about tens of billions of dollars. This time, we need to be ready so as not to miss these opportunities. However, both extremely qualified people like yourselves, and other expert witnesses at the previous hearing, have quoted some very depressing figures. In Ontario alone, we are going to be short 45,000 electricians within five years. In Whitehorse, we would need 15,000 people over a two-year period if ever the mines were to start producing a bit more. These are worrying and dismaying figures.

As opposed to Mr. Mayes, I feel that collectively we can make the decision to invest and to be ready the next time. Governments should not be tossing the problem around like a hot potato.

The following English expression comes to mind:

There comes a point when we have to put a price on stuff.

We hear it said, for instance, that SMEs are not participating very much, if at all, in the apprenticeship programs. We also hear it said that young people, the next generation, have very little interest in the skilled trades. So if you can think of solutions, even if they come at a collective cost, do let us know.

For instance, should the 1% the Quebec government provides to support continuing education not be provided at the national level? Yes, there would be a cost. However, is that cost not minimal compared to the advantages economic recovery will provide? When it finally comes, this time, we could create billions of dollars in economic activity, at the rate the economy would allow us to do so.

We know that apprenticeship programs are not well supported by SMEs. We know that a lot of apprentices drop out after the first year. Even if there is a cost involved, what must we do to solve this?

[Romeo Bellai]

Quebec is a province where there are pools of employees. And so, before a plumber can have access to an apprenticeship, the pool has to be open to new requests. The situation is slightly different from that in the rest of Canada. It is always both a provincial and a federal matter.

From the federal side, what can you do? I think that employment insurance benefits should be distributed more rapidly to these people. As for investments, tax credits help employers. That said, the issue is to know how many people we can attract to a given sector, and how many we can keep there.

Promotion is also an issue. In schools, we ask the students to tell us what apprenticeships they want. They tell us that they want to become doctors, lawyers or work in some other white collar occupation.

Once we attract them to a given field, how can we retain them? That is what is difficult. Employment insurance is helpful. Tax credits are helpful. However, it would seem that a cultural change is needed.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Ms. Anson-Cartwright, do you have something to add?

[Sarah Anson-Cartwright]

Thank you, Mr. Lapointe.

Two weeks ago, the Canadian Chamber of Commerce hosted a symposium bringing experts together with small-business owners and managers to talk about training in small businesses. We realize that it's a real challenge for them. I'm hopeful that the recommendations from this one-day session, as well as the report we take forward to government, will have some suggestions on how to help small businesses. They realize, as most of us realize, that we're at a tipping point. We have a very tight labour market. In some areas there are critical shortages. We still have some persistent unemployment. At the micro-business level—five employees or fewer—they really need to hang on to those people. It's difficult to allow people to go away. If you lose one of your 10 employees for two weeks of training, that's 10% of your activity missing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I have one comment on something.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

You can make a short comment and have no response.

We'll move on to the next one after your short comment.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

A study done by the unions showed that the younger generation's worst fear was to be forced to do the same work for 30 years. They wonder whether in five years, for instance, they will still be electricians. Fifty years ago, the situation was exactly the opposite. When people had a good job, they were ready and willing to keep it for 40 years.

I think that there is a whole aspect of the skilled trades that is not very well known. People change construction sites and can develop new expertise after five years in another aspect of the trade. That opportunity may provide a solution. These young people can't see themselves doing drywall taping for 45 years. They want to know whether every five years or so, new experiences will enrich their lives. Could the solution be to adapt to those expectations?

[Romeo Bellai]

Absolutely. A worker can become a supervisor or the owner of a company. There is that whole aspect to be considered. That is the system, and this is not publicity or propaganda. We have to present the whole picture. That is what is important.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you.

We'll move to the next questioner, Mr. Payne.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you, Chair, and thanks to the witnesses for coming.

In my former life, I was a human resources manager. I worked in the petrochemical industry. We had a lot of tradespeople. We hired apprentices. Along came the national energy program, and you know what? In Alberta it killed virtually everything. Apprentices were gone. Over the 1990s, apprentices were non-existent, or very few of them were around. The average age of journeymen was in the mid to late 40s and even into the 50s.

You did talk about the ups and downs of the economy and that is continual. Even back then when I was human resources manager, everyone was talking about a good university education. I was looking at people in our industry who were making big money and that continues today. Certainly I've always encouraged people to find a job they like. My dad was an electrician. I'm a politician. I'm not sure how you figure that out.

A young man in my riding by the name of Jordan Bartman is a journeyman welder. He's a very young lad. He's a third-year auto apprentice. He is going to the WorldSkills International competition in Leipzig. Our government has had an opportunity to help fund those kinds of skills competitions. I think they're extremely important. We obviously do have some funding. For small employers there's a $1,000 tax credit.

I think there is a big problem in trying to get the educators to change from encouraging kids to go to university. When I went to school there were opportunities to have a welding shop or go into the automotive trade or whatever. That doesn't seem to be there these days. Somehow as the federal government, we need to work with the provinces obviously because that's their responsibility, and they need to work with educators.

Have you got some positive suggestions that would help us move in that direction to make that happen?

[Sarah Anson-Cartwright]

Thank you, Mr. Payne.

One of our commitments at the Canadian Chamber is the result of having done our consultation. Hearing from businesses across the country made us realize there need to be much better connections between post-secondary institutions and the business community. Even on topics like this, skilled trades, you need to reach into high schools. There are lots of good examples of local chamber members deciding they need to make that overture. Maybe they could get a group of guidance counsellors together to meet business people from the community. Wouldn't that help educate and enlighten everyone about local opportunities?

We want to build on those types of initiatives. Our president has put the challenge to our chamber membership that we increase those connections and make those overtures more formal because it's critical to have programs that are better aligned to future needs in the local communities, and the business people are there to provide that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Mr. Bellai.

[Romeo Bellai]

Yes, I have a lot to say about that.

First, in talking about Europe, there is less of a social stigma being in a trade in Europe than there is in Canada. A lot of individuals in Europe are indentured to one company for the whole apprenticeship period. That's a huge difference compared to here, where a person is transient and goes from employer to employer.

In terms of how we convince our young people to get into the trades, there is an example here in Ottawa where the Ottawa Construction Association has constructed a tour where graduating students and also grade 10 students are taken from the classroom and shown around certain shops right in town to encourage them to think that of it as a potential avenue for them. It's a question of bringing the kids—I shouldn't say “kids” as some of them are young adults—to the sites and showing them that this is what we build. That's very important.

There was something that Monsieur Lapointe brought up. It's not only a trade, like being an electrician or a plumber or a carpenter. You can become a superintendent, and you can become an owner. When you are an owner, you open a business. You hire people. You pay taxes. The whole world goes around.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much for that. Your time is up.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Don't I have time for a small comment?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

No.

We'll move to Mr. Cuzner and conclude.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Since my colleague wants to bring up the national energy program, I think we might want to reflect on a little more recent history. When I worked in Fort McMurray for nine years, there were two plants: Suncor—well, it was really Great Canadian Oil Sands Limited at the time—and Syncrude.

When Mr. Chrétien put together the royalties package, we got a national energy program frigging reference in this. Knock the dinosaur dung off your approach here, guys.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Mr. Cuzner, direct your questions to the witness.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It unlocked the full potential of the Canadian oil sands. That's when the sector grew. With 80% of the jobs being created in this country—the new jobs—the vast majority have been in the oil sands in Alberta, in Saskatchewan, and to a lesser degree in Newfoundland. That's where we have really seen the jobs grow.

My question for you, Mr. Hakim, is this. Since this wonderful development and the demand that has been put on Canadian workers since this deal was been signed by Mr. Chrétien, is there collaboration among the big players there? When you look at turnaround times, and when you look at the bodies that are needed, when Syncrude does a shutdown in a rotation—there are probably 400 Nova Scotian tradespeople who go in and do one of the major shutdowns—do the companies sit together and say, “Okay, we're going to do our major shutdown in April and the first half of May, and then Suncor will do theirs”? Is there a rationalization for the timing on those big projects?