Human Resources Committee on Dec. 6th, 2012

[Robert Blakely]

I know we need temporary foreign workers. We have them in British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Newfoundland and Labrador, and Ontario. We need them. If they work under our collective agreements, they get exactly the same money that a Canadian gets. That's the deal, and that's the deal we tried to get the LMOs under. I can't speak to other entities and how they're doing it.

The one thing I would say is this: if you're going to sell young people on careers in construction or in the skilled trades, there needs to be a monetary reward for standing on the high line in Fort McMurray at 40 below and thinking you'd rather be any other place in the world but there. But if you know you're going to make $150,000 this year, you'll get that flange tightened up and think about getting somewhere where you're not going to die.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much, and thank you for that clarification.

Mr. Butt, go ahead.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and my thanks to all of you for being here. I enjoyed all the presentations.

Mr. Blakely, you mentioned that in your view we really have 13 different apprenticeship programs operating across the country, one for each province and territory. You referred to the labour market development agreements. Do you have any specific recommendations that the federal government could include as we renegotiate these agreements with the provinces to make sure that we have some national standards? You mentioned this, but I'm not sure you came up with anything specific. Do you have any specific suggestions on what we could include?

[Robert Blakely]

I do. We might require that there will be certain number of people who actually graduate from the system. We could require that they graduate in a Red Seal trade. We could cooperate in creating more Red Seal trades. We need more of them, not fewer. In areas where there is some confusion in the apprenticeship system, make giving them money conditional on participation in efforts such as these. The directors of apprenticeship know where the problems are. Put them in a room and deprive them of food and water for a half a day, and they can solve a lot of problems. A lot of the problems come up because there is a political interface between the federal government and the provincial governments. The bureaucrats frequently know what the problems are, so impose some conditions. We have a shopping list of conditions we think would be useful. I'll send them to you and the committee.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

That would be great. This is the kind of thing we're looking for in our study, to come up with some things that are—

John Hugh, do you want to add something?

[John Hugh Edwards]

Yes.

To add to that, Bob mentioned earlier that we can make some clear, direct recommendations in terms of the apprenticeship system. Just so we're clear on this, the Canadian Council of Directors of Apprenticeship manages the Red Seal. These are directors of apprenticeship, or whatever their title is in the various provinces and territories.

[Robert Blakely]

The feds manage it. The CCDA is in partnership with them.

[John Hugh Edwards]

They're funded by the federal government of course and the minister, secretariat-wise.

As Bob says, that group getting together should be able to improve the system in significant ways. For example, Bob had mentioned earlier the idea of common core curriculum across the jurisdictions. Common core curriculum seems like a very simple idea. This is what the apprentices are studying in the various jurisdictions across the country, and it's roughly the same: the common core of that curriculum. That means if an apprentice in the midst of his or her training moves from Nova Scotia to British Columbia halfway through an apprenticeship, he or she can pick up the apprenticeship there; it's the same training and it's on the same schedule. These are simple things, to repeat what Bob is saying. They can be done.

Another key recommendation that we would have is that it's the kind of thing that can be tied directly to funding that comes out of the federal government through the labour market development agreements for training, which are formally part of part 2 of the EI program, the support measures. When we're looking at that kind of funding coming out of the federal government, we think that ties on that money to the provinces and territories are appropriate, for example, the development of common core curriculum.

Just quickly, Mr. Chair, another one is that we're very keen on developing the Red Seal trades and, as Bob said, increasing their number. We're also very keen on making sure that those trades aren't fragmented. For example, in the province of British Columbia, a program was developed for framers, part of a carpenter's trade of framing houses. It wasn't very successful in terms of the entrants coming into the program or the response of industry to it. In fact, I've talked to several general contractors in British Columbia, employers who say they don't want people who only have part of a trade, they want people with a full trade. The general contractor wants a full Red Seal carpenter because he doesn't know exactly what he's going to be bidding on next week or next month. We're very concerned that programs will develop what's called boutique trades or fragmented general trades, and that's another thing we think can be tied directly to funding through the federal government.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Does anybody else wish to comment? No.

We'll move to Mr. Lapointe.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to start by making sure I understand two issues. And then, I'd like to hear your comments, if possible, on these two points.

On the one hand, far too many youth are unemployed. On the other, there is a glaring shortage of human resources in the skilled trades. Both of these things are occurring. It makes no sense, but it is a fact.

Take a 20-year-old young man. It may cost us $10,000 to train him for a skilled trade. Based on my experience in my region, in real terms, that would be a young person who is living rather precariously, earning between $15,000 and $20,000 per year, and who could earn something like $45,000 to $50,000 a year thanks to this training, ending up in a less precarious situation.

In this example, his company, within a year or two, is wealthier in human resources; a Canadian citizen is wealthier, financially, within a matter of one year; the consolidated revenue fund is also wealthier because within three years' time, the taxes paid by this young person would have amply covered the initial $10,000 investment.

Mr. Blakely was saying that we could do twice as much as what we are doing today and that it would still be worthwhile financially. That is what I believe I understood from his testimony.

Why not use the means at our disposal to do this? Even if the government were to provide 80% of this $10,000 amount, it could pay off. Why do you believe this isn't being done?

The second aspect of my questions has to do with Mr. Bégin's comments. It is in the same vein as my first idea and is, to my mind, crucial.

We can do all of this but we need to also make sure that we respond to another issue: skilled trades are not perceived as an impressive occupation from a social standpoint nor as a valuable social occupation.

If we are to consider Mr. Bégin's suggestions, I think we need to make sure there is good follow-up in the context of training. We should make sure that people make the right career choices, not just choosing a profession willy-nilly, thinking it will bring in a lot of money is six months' time.

There should be some type of ongoing training. People should associate skilled trades with the fact of being a brilliant individual rather than some kind of second- class citizen who never made it to university. That notion will fall by the wayside in a few years' time.

Are my observations valid? I would like to hear your comments on those two aspects, please.

[Claude Bégin]

I'll give you my perception of the situation in Quebec. For years now, university training was extremely prized, so in the minds of young people, going to university was essential. There was a move away from skilled trades, which nevertheless remain essential in our economy. So, we need to reverse this trend. We need to value trades and promote them.

There is another issue in Quebec, which is actually a problem: not only do we need to train people in skilled trades, but that training needs to be recognized in the form of a diploma. Training is being done in major corporations, but it is not recognized. There is a lack of recognition.

Businesses and business people maintain this major myth. They believe that if they give recognition to business-based training, they will either lose their employee or be faced with pressure from employees to increase wages. Well, this is a myth.

Recent studies have shown the opposite. Training and recognizing training, in the workplace and in terms of the training actually provided, makes employees more faithful to their employer. In exchange, companies get to keep them on staff for several years.

So we need to dispel these myths. We must value on-the-job training and support these people. The goal should also be the granting of a diploma and recognition.

It can be done.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Regarding the other aspect of my concerns, should we make the investments that need to be made to get the results we want?

[Claude Bégin]

Yes indeed, we need to invest both money and resources. Businesses need the money.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Wait just a moment, if you could.

Your time is coming to a close, and you want to hear from Mr. Blakely.

Mr. Bégin, if you could give a short response, then we will hear from Mr. Blakely. I don't think you had concluded.

[Claude Bégin]

Again, the reality in Quebec is that close to 75% of companies are SMEs. They do not have the financial resources they need to provide training. So there needs to be clear support from the various levels of government to support them in this training. If they have the resources and the grants, they will do the training.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Okay.

Mr. Blakely, go ahead.

[Robert Blakely]

In terms of apprenticeships and how we get people into them, 80% of the apprentices in Canada are produced by 17% of the employers. In my local of the plumbers and pipefitters in Edmonton, we have 11,000 members. We have 2,000 apprentices. When you take the retired guys out of the equation, it's about 25% apprentices. That's all we can manage. We have a list that would go around the room twice of people who would like to get into one of the pipe trades. People need to have a job. You only get a job if the employer can put you to work. If the employer can put you to work, you have a chance to be an apprentice and to have a career. The Government of Canada needs to lead from out front by saying, “Do training on my job.” You won't have to spend $10,000. You will have somebody earning and learning.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Mr. Blakely.

We will now move to Mr. McColeman.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Thank you, witnesses, for being here today.

All three of you mention mobility, in slightly different contexts, as being one of the larger issues here. It resonates with me as someone who owned a construction company for 25 years and was also president of the Ontario Home Builders' Association in the mid-1990s, because the mobility barrier is actually between provinces. For example, right here in Ottawa with Quebec next door, an Ottawa contractor is not allowed to go work in Quebec, yet the reverse is allowed. A Quebec contractor can come into Ottawa and work but Quebec does not allow anyone from outside the province. I often use the example of an electrical company here in Ottawa that employs some 200 people. It wants to bid on contracts in Quebec but it cannot do that. That's one mobility problem that needs to be solved within the industry itself, because Quebec has rules regarding closing out other people and contractors.

The other mobility problem is, as you have articulated, the transferability of training from one province to another. I can tell you about many good employees who come from other parts of the country into companies in Ontario and actually have to start all over again, even if they are partway through. I believe we need a very pragmatic solution to that problem as well.

Ms. Huziak, you mentioned that young people are ready and willing, and they want to get involved. Are they mobile? Will they go to parts of the country where they can get out of whatever form of transportation they have taken and have a job within the first two days of being there? There are parts of the country where that can happen.

[Amy Huziak]

Maybe I can briefly comment, and then John can add.

I believe that many young people are willing and able to move around the country, some more than others, of course. There are some young people who have families or other commitments for whom that would be very difficult.

[John Hugh Edwards]

The question becomes what kind of support we provide, as Bob was suggesting earlier, in terms of that mobility.

I can tell you, as someone from Cape Breton who travels there regularly—and Roger would agree—there's an Air Canada flight that leaves Halifax, comes down in Ottawa, and then goes to Calgary. And in reverse, there's a flight that takes off from Edmonton, lands in Ottawa, and goes on to Halifax. Those flights are full of people who are working largely in the building and construction trades and in the oil patch out west in Saskatchewan or Alberta. They are travelling regularly—commuting is the right way to put it—on a several-thousand-mile commute to work on a regular basis. Canadian workers, generally, for generations, have been ready and willing to move. They need the ability to do that.

Bob says, and at the Canadian Labour Congress we say, that the Red Seal program we have is one of the best programs in the world for that. One of the things it does is provide that labour mobility. A worker with a Red Seal in his or her back pocket can go to work anywhere in the country, if the person can get there.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

I would relate a few examples, in my own community, of young people who have made that trip to the west and have landed work immediately. In fact, if they're interested in getting into apprenticeships and trades, they're automatically streamed that way. They may be taking unskilled or semi-skilled work and have not had that desire.

I would challenge young people right across the country. We travelled out west. We listened to the large corporations and the small business owners, etc., and they're crying for people. They're crying for young people who just want to work. They're crying for them. There are jobs immediately available for them.

You cited numbers about the fact that they are unemployed and that it's getting worse for them. You're painting a canvas here that all of a sudden things are dire in their lives across Canada. It isn't the case. The case is that there's lots of work. It depends on how mobile you will make yourself to seek it out as an individual and take responsibility to do that in your life. I just make that point. There are parts and pockets of this country where they are absolutely crying for workers.

I'd like to ask Mr. Blakely a question. I think you did a great job giving us some very pragmatic suggestions. I don't know whether you addressed, in your opinion, what the real barriers are to apprenticeship. A huge percentage of people don't complete. When I say barriers, I mean the practical reasons, in your mind, people aren't completing. I'd like to hear those.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Your time is up, but go ahead and respond to that.

[Robert Blakely]

The first is that in the voluntary certification trades, you don't have to actually complete to be one. You have to have the licence to be a plumber or an electrician, so people complete.

Second, trades aren't sexy. Third, people can't find jobs and don't know where the jobs are. The guy who has basic and intermediate carpentry in Ontario goes to Alberta, and somebody says that he has to start at the bottom. He says, “Hey, kiss my...pal”, and does something else. We have lost the sunk cost in him.

We need to mobilize training, make training move, and rip down the interprovincial barriers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that.

We'll move to Mr. Cuzner to conclude.