Human Resources Committee on Feb. 26th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you.

With that we'll turn to Mr. Sullivan.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here.

This is going to be a good study, I hope. There have been a number of other studies in the past. I noticed your presentation didn't include whether that number has changed since 1981, when we had the first study on improving the lot of people with disabilities in the workforce.

There have been many recommendations over the years. Is there appreciable change in the representation? We're at 51%, which doesn't seem to be fairly successful, in my view. How does that compare to the United States, which has the Americans with Disabilities Act?

[Yves Gingras]

What I'd like to offer in terms of facts here is that the situation for persons with disabilities in the Canadian labour market improved tremendously up to the last recession in 2008. We saw good trends, better employment rates, increases in the number of people pursuing studies. This is all positive; people are bringing higher levels of skills to the workplace. Through the recession, however, these are people that were more marginalized and they paid a high price from the recession.

From this we see that when there's economic growth, it really helps with the integration of persons with disabilities. Unfortunately, we don't always have the data we need to look at recent years, but with the data we have we see that things are picking up. Things have been pretty good. We had a difficult time through the recession, but the long-term trend is that in Canada something is happening. Persons with disabilities are making their way in the labour market. Their conditions are improving. We see that with various studies that are available.

In the United States as well there are improvements. I could not give you specific statistics, but we see in both countries that the situation of persons with disabilities improving.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

But you haven't presented any data on that.

In terms of income support systems in Canada, Canada pension plan disability and employment insurance, I'm aware that persons with disabilities take longer to re-enter the workforce after having been laid off, because it's just more difficult for persons with disabilities—it just is, in general. The new regulations that the minister has brought out forcing people to accept work with significantly lower wages and in different locations doesn't take into account persons with disabilities. Is that a failing of this regulation?

[Yves Gingras]

I would like to bring to your attention the efforts the department is making to improve the information that we make available for unemployed individuals so they know where the jobs are. We're helping make that connection with the employers. That includes people with disabilities.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

But my question is, persons with disabilities are hamstrung by that seven-week and 18-week rule. If it takes them longer to reacquire employment, they are more likely to face a reduction in their income and a reduction in their available job search outside their field than other Canadians, persons without disabilities. Is this something that needs addressing?

[Yves Gingras]

I would offer that the department is helping because we are looking at personal situations and we're trying to help people find the jobs that are available. We are improving our systems to help make that connection. That helps persons with disabilities as well.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

You mentioned in your brief the UN convention to which Canada is a signatory which was ratified on March 11, 2010. As we all know, on March 11, 2012, the government was supposed to bring forward a report on how Canada has fared under this UN convention in the first two years. There's been no report yet. Do we know what's wrong and what's happened, where the report is, and why we're waiting?

[Sylvie Dubé, Policy Director, Office for Disability Issues, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development]

The HRSDC ODI is coordinating the response at the federal government level, and Canadian Heritage is the department responsible for coordinating all of Canada's responses. My understanding is that it's in its final stages, but I couldn't give you an exact date of when it's going to be ready or tabled.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

In your brief, you also talked about—and maybe you can clear it up, I'm a little confused about the numbers—labour market agreements for persons with disabilities being $218 million, and then on the next page, through labour market agreements, $500 million. Are they two different projects? Are they two different amounts? Why are they both there?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

The time is up, but we'll let you answer the question.

[Monika Bertrand]

Yes, labour market agreements for persons with disabilities are distinct from labour market agreements. The labour market agreements for persons with disabilities are the ones dedicated to the transfer to the provinces for persons with disabilities. Labour market agreements, they do support under-represented groups. They do support low-skilled employed. They do support unemployed who are not on EI. But it is not a targeted transfer to persons with disabilities. There are some differences, and those are two different transfers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that.

We'll now move to Mr. Daniel

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, witnesses, for being here.

Forgive my ignorance, but let me begin by just asking, is there a clear definition of disabilities? I ask this in the sense that it's obvious when somebody has a physical disability, but in my riding I've got people who are deaf, who from the outside appearance have no difference at all, but have tremendous trouble trying to find a job. I have people who have come to me saying they're dyslexic.

Where do you draw the line in terms of what a disability is? Do you have some guidelines that you are using to define what a disability is?

[Sylvie Dubé]

What I can say, generally speaking though, is there is not one definition of disability. Most folks use the UN definition of disability, which is those who have long-term physical, mental, intellectual, or sensory impairments, which in interaction with various barriers may hinder their full and effective participation in society on an equal basis.

What has happened is in the past it moved from more of a medical definition of disability to more of a societal one, and disability now is broader in the sense that a person can think of themselves as disabled as to the barriers that they have to face in employment or inclusion in other spheres of their daily activities. For different programs, whether they be federal, provincial or municipal, there are different criteria, so different definitions of disability.

The short answer is no, there is not one definition for disability.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Are there any comments from the others?

[Monika Bertrand]

From the program perspective, we do have certain criteria, but when it comes to disability, it's the person self-identifying as having a disability.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you.

When we're talking about barriers and things like that do you feel there's any additional non-monetary initiatives that could be undertaken to address existing barriers to persons with disabilities?

[Yves Gingras]

If we look at the panel's report that was just tabled, I think there's a strong message about some leaders in the field having good practices. We have programs already looking at doing some outreach and doing some employer awareness so that they are aware of the business case to hire and to accommodate persons with disabilities. Employers are looking for people with the best abilities. They're looking for qualified people, and they are there. We have a huge potential. This issue of awareness is already part of some of our programming. That is certainly something that the department can explore in reinforcing.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

What is HRDC hearing from stakeholders about key issues and challenges for persons with disabilities?

[Yves Gingras]

We do research in this area, but the latest report from the panel, I think, provides us with a number of strong messages. We could talk about various ranges of disabilities and whether people face mobility issues and pain issues, but when it comes to getting the job, this seems to be the most difficult challenge faced by persons with disabilities. Once they have a job, employers will often find ways to accommodate them.

Finding a job for persons with disabilities remains quite a challenge in Canada. We've heard from the panel that while the employer has a strong incentive to find people with the best abilities, they often don't know where to go to tap into the existing pool of persons with disabilities. They don't know where to find partners, the community partners, for example. When they have a recruitment process many realize this is not adapted for persons with disabilities. Often the print is too small, or there are some pictures people can't understand. The processes are not well adapted to allow persons with disabilities to enter into the recruitment process.

We also heard strongly from many employers that this discussion between the prospect, the candidate, and the employer is a difficult one on both sides. Persons with disabilities often will be reluctant to declare that they have a disability. It's not always visible. When it's a mental health issue, the fear of being stigmatized is even more important on the part of the individual. The employer as well is afraid of asking the questions necessary to define exactly what the situation is and also to determine what type of accommodation would be needed. Therefore there is the fear of entering into complex processes or having a huge cost of accommodation for a potential employee. That difficult discussion remains a major issue. We hear it is especially the case when it has to do with mental health issues.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Mr. Daniel, your time is up.

We will now move to Mr. Cuzner.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I have two questions. I should probably know the answer to the first one, but I don't. As a federal agency, or really right across the federal spectrum, is there a target or a number of employees—we have 350,000 public servants—or a percentage that we aspire to have recognized as persons with disabilities?

[Yves Gingras]

If I understand correctly, you're asking as a major employer.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Yes, exactly.