Evidence of meeting #82 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was business.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:40 p.m.
Canadian Counsel, Canadian National Office, United Steelworkers
Certainly.
In response to your question about agricultural work, just to be clear, we take the same position as the CLC, which is that we're not suggesting that the seasonal agricultural worker program, which has, as you say, existed for many years and has been used to bring in seasonal workers, be part of the phase-out. We're talking about NOCs C and D, excluding SAWP and live-in caregivers.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
May 21st, 2013 / 12:40 p.m.
NDP
Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I thank the witnesses for being here with us today.
Concerning the amendments to this bill proposed by the government, I would like to know this: how, in the restaurant or hotel industry, can a foreign worker program help to resolve a permanent problem? Mr. Davidson, who owns a restaurant in Saskatchewan, told us earlier that he had trouble finding employees. As opposed to Mr. Sinclair's problem, that problem persists throughout the year.
First, how can a temporary worker program contribute to solving that issue?
Second, do you think that the proposed amendments involve concrete support for employers, in order to help them develop a Canadian labour force?
Third, are there concrete methods to verify whether employers are abusing the system? For instance, are employed asked, under this law, to prove that there is a real shortage?
Do you see these aspects in the proposed amendments to Bill C-60?
12:45 p.m.
Senior Researcher, Social and Economic Policy Department, Canadian Labour Congress
Thank you for the questions. I can answer some of them.
The question about the use of and increasing reliance on a temporary foreign worker program to solve long-term labour market needs is a good one, and I think that's where we find ourselves today. I haven't seen any projections that suggest long-term labour shortages in lower-skilled categories. In fact, it's the opposite. There's the suggestion there will be labour surpluses in many of those positions in the lower-skilled categories because of the changing knowledge-intensive nature of work and occupations in Canada. If the goal is to fill positions at the low end through access to international workers, then we would advocate shifting away from a temporary foreign worker program arrangement with all of its flaws and shifting towards increasing pathways to permanent status and expanding the economic immigration opportunities for workers with lower levels of formal training.
If people are good enough to work in Canada, they're good enough to live here. We should be giving lower-skilled workers many more opportunities to become permanent residents. The provincial nominee programs don't do that adequately, especially in Ontario where unskilled and semi-skilled workers don't have access to permanent residency through the PNP. Those pathways are reserved for higher-skilled workers.
Very quickly, on the issue of the government's role in monitoring and surveilling compliance with the process, the CLC advocates for a migrant workers commission, which would be an independently staffed and resourced authority to provide exactly that role in working with employers and working with all stakeholders. This would ensure that migrant workers' rights are protected and that the program is fulfilling the objectives that it was originally intended to.
12:45 p.m.
Vice-President, Human Resources, Blue Mountain Resorts Limited
Sorry. You go ahead.
12:45 p.m.
Canadian Counsel, Canadian National Office, United Steelworkers
Thank you.
The Steelworkers Union adopts the submissions of the CLC. I would add just one point, which is to express our concern and our reservations about the extensive use of ministerial instructions in the legislation as it now stands. Concerns raised in connection with the issuance of work permits and labour market opinions have a significant impact on the Canadian workforce and Canadians as a whole. Therefore, we say determining the preconditions that should be satisfied before those things are issued should be part of the laws and part of the regulations. Therefore, they should be subject to full parliamentary democratic debate in which this government can be held accountable for its policy initiatives, and they should not be done through ministerial instructions.
Thank you.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki
You have about 30 seconds left. Did you want to use them?
I have Mr. Sinclair, for 30 seconds, and then we'll move to the next questioner.
12:50 p.m.
Vice-President, Human Resources, Blue Mountain Resorts Limited
I can comment only on the seasonal impact of the program. I have no interest in arguing that it solves a year-round problem. Ours is only a short season, just like the agriculture program—in, out, thank you very much—because we shrink and expand dramatically as the season starts and ends.
As to whether the checks are sufficient, I'd answer that question better in a week or two because we were informed late last week that we are going to be audited, and we haven't gone through that yet, but I invite that and am confident we'll pass with flying colours.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON
Thank you all for attending.
In response to one of the comments Mr. Roberts made, just so you are aware, consultations are taking place across the country on this file. I was in Regina, Toronto, Calgary, and Vancouver last week. I will be in St. John's and Halifax this week.
Union representatives were invited. Only one came to any one of those meetings. I would encourage you, if you have issues to put on the table, and you claim here you are not being asked to participate, to step up and participate, because we're asking.
It was quite disappointing to have only one of your colleagues sit through these consultations. He was a great guy from the film industry. We were delighted to have him there, and he had some excellent and thoughtful comments.
The one thing I will raise.... This is a question which in some respects maybe the two of you should be answering to Mr. Sinclair as well as to the individuals who are still sitting in the audience from our previous panel. According to Statistics Canada—I will quote my source, and I would encourage others, if you are going to talk about empirical data, to please quote your source—in Manitoba the unemployment rate is 5.8%, and in fact it's lower in Winnipeg. It is 4.0% in Saskatchewan, which is essentially unemployment eliminated, because I think we all know how those numbers work. In Alberta it's 4.4%. Last week it was 4.2%. That's Statistics Canada data. That's empirical data. That's a quote from that reputable—I think we'd all agree—institution.
If that is the case, and there really is no one to find, then when Mr. Sinclair speaks about elevating the cost to his company and essentially putting Canadians out of work.... What I heard about all over western Canada last week and I'm confident I will hear, just as I did right after the budget, in St. John's yet again is, “We have five or ten temporary foreign workers, but that makes sure I can still employ 50 or 60 Canadians.” In fact, last week a meat processor in Calgary said to me that he employs 100 to 200 temporary foreign workers to make sure that 1,800 Canadians can still go to work.
How do we reach that balance? How high should Mr. Sinclair have to escalate his prices in order to keep people employed before going out of business? How does he reach the balance without going out of business to make sure Canadians...? I have to tell you he employs hundreds of Canadians, as do the people we spoke to earlier this morning. They support hundreds of Canadians. They train them every single day.
What's the tipping point in your minds of how much they should escalate their wages to make sure that Mr. Sinclair's Canadian employees still have a job?
12:50 p.m.
Senior Researcher, Social and Economic Policy Department, Canadian Labour Congress
Thank you for the question.
One of the confusions in this whole debate is the issue of how to get at legitimate, genuine labour shortages. Much of the justification for policy-making on the assumption of labour shortages is very subjective. It's business owners, employers, reporting difficulty in attracting workers.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
12:50 p.m.
Senior Researcher, Social and Economic Policy Department, Canadian Labour Congress
Well—
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON
Statistics Canada data, last I checked, are empirical data, and the unemployment rate in Saskatchewan is 4%. Are you saying they're not correct?
12:50 p.m.
Senior Researcher, Social and Economic Policy Department, Canadian Labour Congress
I am saying the unemployment rate itself doesn't necessarily indicate the existence of labour shortages. Ironically, one measure of labour shortages is wage pressure, but one of the functions of the temporary foreign worker program expansion has been to suppress and to hold down wage pressure.
If we want an objective measure, let's look at measures of genuine labour shortages that exist. The Bureau of Labor Statistics in the United States has a measure. HRSDC uses it. It has to do with above-average employment growth, above-average wage increases—
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
12:50 p.m.
Senior Researcher, Social and Economic Policy Department, Canadian Labour Congress
—and above-average—
12:50 p.m.
Senior Researcher, Social and Economic Policy Department, Canadian Labour Congress
—below-average—
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON
What's the threshold at which you would like Canadians not to have jobs?
12:50 p.m.
Senior Researcher, Social and Economic Policy Department, Canadian Labour Congress
Well, I—
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON
How high should he have to escalate his wages? What changes should he have to make, or the others we met with today? That was my question.
12:50 p.m.
Senior Researcher, Social and Economic Policy Department, Canadian Labour Congress
Well, the way I interpreted Mr. Sinclair's testimony was that he was in fact saying that we can't increase wages to attract Canadian workers to do these jobs because it would mean an inability to provide those services under the business model, but—
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON
But you've also said that you don't think low-skilled workers should be allowed into the country to fill those roles to help him.