Human Resources Committee on May 28th, 2013

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

So the number you use is that 90% of people over 65 years of age or older have at least one of these chronic diseases. Do we know if that percentage is any different for those 65 and older who are still in the workforce? Is that number different for people without these conditions, i.e. are there more people working in the workforce who do not have these conditions? I'm trying to get an appreciation of whether, for the people who are continuing to work post-65, one of the major contributing factors to that is their very good health, whether that's one of the main reasons they keep working rather than their choosing or needing to work. I'm trying to drive down that contributing factor around health conditions and whether people with better health are more likely to keep working past 65 versus those who may have chronic health conditions.

I know of a gentleman in my riding who has chronic heart disease at 68, but he is still working. He is working because he wants to, by the way. It's because he enjoys doing the job that he does. But he does have a chronic health condition. Do we have any more definitive numbers on that? Or is it not something you've tracked?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

You can conclude with those responses.

Please go ahead.

[Dr. Yves Joanette]

I don't have these numbers. But one thing that is complicated here—because your question is totally relevant and to the point—is that on the other side as well, pursuing a work activity contributes to their facing these chronic conditions. So it has to be disentangled. That's why at this point in time the complex relationship between how being healthy is associated with continued work activity or how continued work activity contributes to staying healthy have not been disentangled, and that's why we support this Canadian longitudinal study on aging.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Does anyone else wish to comment on that?

[Margaret Gillis]

I think that's the right answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Then we'll move to Mr. Cleary.

Go ahead.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to the witnesses.

Ms. Gillis, in your opening remarks you talk about how recent stats—which Mr. Butt also just referred to a second ago in his question—tell us that 90% of Canadians age 65 and over have at least one chronic disease or condition. That's 90%.

We've been trying to figure out the number of Canadians who want to work versus the number of Canadians who are forced to work. We are talking about older Canadians. The range, I believe, is between 50% and 70% who are forced to work. Given that 90% of Canadians over 65 have a chronic health condition and that so many Canadians are forced to work for the income, for the cash, because their pensions don't cut it, what does that do to someone's health when they are forced to work with a chronic health problem?

[Margaret Gillis]

I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer that. That's a very direct medical question. It would depend very clearly on the circumstances of the individual. So I'm not sure as a public health official that I could give you an answer.

I'm not sure, Mr. Joanette, if you would like to try as well?

[Dr. Yves Joanette]

Maybe I can comment a little bit. I'll refer to my colleague, Mr. Bédard, to comment on the diversity of the accommodation.

Chronic conditions can be very diverse. They can be physical ones in a physically demanding type of work activity. They can be cognitive, with someone having less ability to pay attention in a job that require lots of attention because they are focused on the computer screen, or the reverse if they have a little bit of physical impairment and have all of their attention.

So it's very complex. But certainly it is true that going to work represents a source of stress, and we know that stress is generally not good. So it could have an impact. However, we would like to provide you with the evidence of these relationships. That's why we need the evidence. But your question is in the right direction: you should be a researcher.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Mr. Bédard, if you would like to make a comment, please go ahead.

[Jean-Luc Bédard]

I would just like to add that there have been initiatives in workplaces where rather simple solutions are put into place to alleviate and make lighter the darker side of stress associated with work. For example, there are simple ergonomics to alleviate physical pain, which then renders the pursuit of work easier. There are a number of those initiatives as pilot projects which have then been implemented more widely in big companies, allowing workers to turn more happily towards working longer.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Mr. Joanette, I have another question for you then. In your response you mentioned evidence of the impact of stress in people who are already suffering from chronic health problems. Is this evidence from the study you mentioned in your opening remarks, the one that includes 11 different universities and 160 researchers?

[Dr. Yves Joanette]

What I was referring to was already known, let's say, a single relationship. The study I was referring to in my remark is one of the few large studies taking into consideration all of the factors.

But CIHR is already supporting researchers in this country. For instance, Dr. Sonia Lupien in Montreal is doing research on stress and work and has disseminated her research to stakeholders, industry, and small companies, and this relationship between stress and work has already been studied.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Do you do occupational tracking? I have a more specific question than that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

You're just about out of time.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

The people who work in physically stressful industries, such as construction, reach retirement age but say they're forced to work, are they also forced to do physical labour? Are they even capable of doing that considering they spent a lifetime of wear and tear on their bodies?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Go ahead with a short comment.

[Dr. Yves Joanette]

That's exactly the kind of question that will be considered in the big study linking the type of work, the environment—whether urban or rural—and gender. All of these aspects have to be taken into consideration. Unfortunately at this point we do not have a multi-dimensional study looking at all of these aspects together. We have bits and pieces here and there and we suspect there are relationships such as the one you suggest. We need this, and it's coming soon.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

We'll now move to Mr. Daniel.

Go ahead.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here.

The implication of some of the discussion is that all of a sudden you hit 55 and you've got all of these chronic diseases. Can you actually tell me if there's any research done on how many people are already coming into that age group with some of these diseases? Some of them aren't that difficult in the sense that there are good remedies for them, for example, diabetes. Diabetes is huge in Canada. I'm sure there are many people coming into that age group who are already type 2 diabetics such as me.

[Dr. Yves Joanette]

I'll comment briefly on your question. It is true. You're right that some of our exchanges in this discussion suggest that something happens suddenly at one point, but of course it's a life-course factor.

Aging starts at birth, as it is, and there's a difference between the aged and aging. We are preparing for active aging even when we're kids. For instance, if we have concussions playing hockey, they could be associated later in life with increased susceptibility to developing Alzheimer's disease.

You're right: these figures were only snapshots of those at ages 55, 65, and 85, but this is a long, life-course perspective.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

As a little follow-up to that, we've done a lot of studies and we can see a lot of good work that you and the researchers have done on people in the workforce and how they get into the workforce, etc. Have there been any studies on people reaching these age groups and deciding voluntarily not to work, and comparing their lifestyles and disease conditions with those who actually have an objective in life and get into the workforce, who actually look forward to getting up and going and doing something?

[Dr. Yves Joanette]

Can I simply say that the Canadian longitudinal study on aging is going to pose this exact question. We're not choosing people who are working. In fact we're not choosing; it's population based. Maybe some of you have already received a phone call to be part of that study. It's random in the population.

Given that 50,000 will be involved, we will end up with a number of individuals who will have decided exactly what you describe. Because of all the measures that are taken in that study following people for three years, inviting them to the data collection centres, taking a little bit of blood, looking at their grip, at their physical health, their bones, and so on, this is how we will know if there's something different here.

You're totally right that this is a very important question to be answered.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Does anyone else wish to comment?

Go ahead, Mr. Daniel.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Just following on from that, do you feel there are any additional non-monetary initiatives that we as a government at the federal level could take and put into place to address existing barriers for people in the older persons category, if you wish—things the government could do that would actually make it easier for people to get some work, whether it be full time, part time, or whatever?