Human Resources Committee on May 28th, 2013

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Yes, absolutely.

[Dr. Richard Chaykowski]

But let me start with your second issue. There's no question that the characteristics and the challenges facing individuals who are 50, 55, and 60, versus 70, and in the workforce, are quite different. But that's one of the reasons I also emphasized the issue for persons with disabilities, because people pick up a variety of limitations as they age.

I'm going for another checkup of my eyes; I think I'm going for trifocals now.

So it's just the reality that their situation will be fundamentally different.

From a labour market viewpoint, I don't know that it's particularly productive to try to draw tight lines around 55 to 65, or 65 to 75. We have grown up with a mindset of 65 being some kind of a magic number. I think all of this is very fluid now, and we simply have to get away from those definitions, because they really affect the way we view the policies that we'd like to think about and implement. It's a tougher problem to think about the labour force being more fluid from an age and participation viewpoint, but I think that's where we have to go.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Can I just follow up with a tiny question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Yes, a short question.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Would it be fair to say that it's easier to work with that kind of fluidity in some occupations than others?

[Dr. Richard Chaykowski]

Absolutely.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Again, you picture somebody in a steel mill who, at 65, may just not be physically able to continue that job. Whereas in our profession, if you look around the House of Commons, there are lots of people who are well over 65. It's pretty much the norm, actually.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Dr. Richard Chaykowski]

Absolutely.

[An hon. member]

I have a mayor who's 92.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Dr. Richard Chaykowski]

I think the variable that you're picking on is the work conditions and so forth that have had a significant impact on that segment of the workforce. So I think that's absolutely a fair comment: it does vary by occupation and by industry, and so forth.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that exchange.

I did note, Madame Charlton, your rather neat analysis with respect to the carrot and stick at the beginning of this. I might say that, in time, one can get used to trifocals quite nicely.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Dr. Richard Chaykowski]

I'm very encouraged by that because I'm a little worried.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

All right. We'll move now to Mr. Mayes. Go ahead.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

The previous witnesses talked about health issues as far as older workers were concerned. Our committee has been focused on skills training and helping older workers get trained for new jobs so they can continue in the workforce.

But what really struck me as being very interesting is this. Looking at the employer side of this proposition, are there any statistics around, for instance, the absenteeism or sick leave of older workers of 55 plus, and then maybe those over 60, and then 65, so that we can understand just how important the health issue is? Also, how many older workers are not hired, not because of lack of skills but maybe because they're not healthy, or not physically fit to carry on with employment?

Mr. Chaykowski, have you ever looked into that issue in your research?

[Dr. Richard Chaykowski]

In fact, I'm undertaking research now with a team that is looking not at health issues generally but at specific disability issues. What you find is that there are a certain number of workers who are in some sense prefiltered out of jobs because of their health condition. Usually, it's what we would call a disability from the perspective of having a potential impact on their ability to the job, or perceived impact on their ability to do the job. Once they're on the job, the issue is the extent to which the employers accommodate the disability. If they don't accommodate the disability, that can have a direct impact on the person's performance and subsequent promotions, training opportunities, or even opportunities for other jobs.

Not being an expert on the general health side but having looked at the disability side, I believe it's an extremely important factor. We're in the midst of an aging population and workforce. Since the workforce is being skewed toward the older ages, all of these problems are becoming more accentuated. Now is definitely the time to start thinking about these issues.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Béjaoui.

[Dr. Ali Béjaoui]

I would like to add something. I have not worked on the issue of disability as such, but one of the OECD recommendations was to change the perception Canadians have that older workers are absent more often and are sicker. That is one of the recommendations, but not much is actually being done about that age-based and health-based discrimination in hiring practices. However, something must be done if we want to change Canadians' perceptions. Certain studies actually show that it is a myth that older workers are absent more often or sicker. However, those studies are focused on certain sectors. That area should be explored to change the perception not only of the general population, but also of employers.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

Part of that might be because the healthier older workers are getting hired so the outcomes are better. That needs to be looked at when considering whom they're hiring and what their fitness levels are. That's important.

In your studies, have you come across different practices in other countries? Some countries have models that look intriguing for us with respect to policy, and for employers to look at to engage older workers in their workforce.

[Dr. Ali Béjaoui]

First of all, for older workers, it's about flexible retirement. In Quebec, we see people who do this at the same time. At the federal level, we changed the Income Tax Act to allow people to accumulate their pensions and continue working at the same time. It's something that we recommended in 2004, and it's working. The idea of having this targeted policy could be perceived as being discriminatory because

That can be perceived as discriminatory. The OECD is wondering why—seeing as how flexibility is something many groups want—the issue is not considered in terms of a partial disability. Why do people have to be disabled to have access to flexibility? Why not apply the idea of flexibility both to disabled workers and older workers? That way, the focus would not be placed specifically on older workers as a group.

The same notion applies to training, more or less. That's still being debated. Let's take the example of Nordic countries. They have successfully established a relationship between employment insurance and access to training. Those countries have a centralized industrial relations system where the employer, the government and the union are all at the same negotiation table. The policies and the experience are all there. We have a great deal to learn from those countries when it comes to policies. However, we must be willing to review our policies.

I will stop there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that exchange. Certainly it's wise to have everybody at the table when designing policy or talking about this issue.

We'll now go to Monsieur Boulerice.

Go ahead.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I agree with your last comment. That's good.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Well, are there other things we might agree on?