Evidence of meeting #20 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was study.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paul Thompson  Assistant Deputy Minister, Processing and Payment Services Branch, Service Canada
Frank Vermaeten  Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Ian Shugart  Deputy Minister, Department of Employment and Social Development

May 1st, 2014 / 9:30 a.m.

Paul Thompson Assistant Deputy Minister, Processing and Payment Services Branch, Service Canada

We are currently expanding our collaboration between Service Canada and Veterans Affairs Canada. There are Veterans Affairs Canada staff in our service centres to take in applications, but not to process them. It is the department that is responsible for processing applications.

9:30 a.m.

NDP

Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC

How do you explain these delays?

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Madame Groguhé, that was about a minute and thirty. You're about a minute and fifteen over, but that's okay. We'll make sure other people get some latitude as well.

9:30 a.m.

NDP

Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC

I will come back to that question.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Mr. Mayes, go ahead for five minutes, please.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you, Minister Kenney and Minister Bergen, for being here today.

Minister, in my notes, it says that in the report on plans and priorities, you, as the minister, refer to the importance of speeding up the recognition of foreign credentialling. I've been on this committee for a while, and we did a study on foreign credentialling for professional skills for new Canadians. Our government responded by putting, I think, $50 million towards assisting people to get that credentialling.

How successful has that been? Has there been any need for any further funding for that program?

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

To be honest, it's difficult to measure how effective it has been statistically, because all the work we do is trying to change systems. We don't control the professional licensing bodies that make the actual decisions. We play a facilitative role trying to coax and prod provinces and through them the licensing bodies to get with the program and to speed up and simplify the process for foreign credential recognition and assessment.

In that regard, my view is we've made a lot of progress. This stuff doesn't make headlines, but it's hard, difficult, technical, granular work. In this thing called a pan-Canadian framework for the assessment and recognition of foreign qualifications, there's a big federal investment of $50 million. We're paying to bring together all 10 of the provincial licensing bodies as we work through the 40-plus licensed professions to get them to one table and hammer out simplified, streamlined procedures for credential assessment and recognition. By the way, this has the happy effect of enabling greater interprovincial labour mobility for Canadians.

We've gone through 14 of the 40-plus regulated professions. We're about to launch work on another several. We're identifying those professions that I'll say are more eager to participate. Some professions still seem to be stuck in an old-school protectionist or gatekeeping attitude. I think we need to start naming and shaming some of them.

Finally, I think we are having good effect with things like the foreign credential recognition loans pilot project. We've done a thousand of those loans, delivered through non-profit groups that have worked out arrangements with financial institutions to provide loans of up to $10,000 on preferential terms as bridge financing. This is to help foreign professionals stuck in survival jobs to maybe take some time off their survival jobs to get college diplomas, pay for their certification exams, and do what they need to do to get that little increment in skills and education so they can get their credential and get to work in their profession. Again, it's only a thousand, but that's a good pilot, and the results are phenomenally positive.

Finally, we are doing pre-arrival work overseas, such as through the Canadian immigration integration program delivered by the Association of Canadian Community Colleges, through centres abroad where we invite selected economic immigrants to come in for free to a seminar that includes personalized counselling on how to get ready for the Canadian labour market. We point them to where they can apply for their credentials in advance, and maybe backfilling they need to do in their education before they get to Canada as permanent residents. Again, the results in that population in terms of their employment have seemed to be extremely positive. I think CIC is doing a formal evaluation that will be forthcoming.

To be honest, we're dealing with relatively small numbers of people in those two programs. If we were to roll these out to affect hundreds of thousands of people, the costs would probably be in the tens of billions of dollars.

We're trying to play a facilitative and leadership role in this area. I think the situation is.... The most important thing is the reforms we're making to the immigration system by doing a qualitative assessment of people's education and credentials in the application process, so we stop the craziness of ascribing the same value to a degree from the Indian Institute of Technology, which is the MIT of Asia, as we do to the dodgiest college that is a degree mill.

We used to ascribe the same points, the same credibility, in our immigration selection process to the highest quality and the lowest quality degrees and diplomas. Now we are making a qualitative assessment of those people whose degrees or professional credentials are likely to be recognized as being at or close to the Canadian standard. Those are the folks we're seeking to give admission to, so they don't end up driving cabs and working in corner stores.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

That's five.

The last round in the first hour will be Ms. Sims, for five minutes.

9:40 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Minister, I'm sure you read with great relish the C. D. Howe report that was just released, in which it points out that the unemployment rate in both Alberta and B.C. increased. They make a direct link to the increase in the lower skilled temporary foreign worker program. Why were so many LMOs given out in this category when unemployment was so high, especially for entry-level jobs?

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Well, LMOs are only approved if and when Service Canada officials are satisfied that employers have met all of the requirements for advertising and offering the job to Canadians at the prevailing regional wage rate, etc.

However, having observed those stats, I was concerned, which is why a year ago we tightened up the LMO screening process. We extended the advertising period to eight weeks. We extended the number of media in which they have to advertise. As you know, we took away the wage flexibility, etc. We have put on the LMO fee, which has a slight dissuasive effect. We've seen a reduction in LMO applications since then, and I think we need to go further.

9:40 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Thank you, Minister, but really, I think for the average Canadian it doesn't really pass the common-sense test when they see McDonalds in Victoria, of all places, getting the number of LMOs they did.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Ms. Sims, you'll be pleased to know, and as I've said publicly, I agree with you.

9:40 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Thank you.

Minister, I think we all agree that what we really need to focus on is upskilling our existing workforce and giving our young people opportunities to enter the workforce and work their way up. Instead, I think the temporary foreign worker program has definitely got in the way of doing that.

There was a call for proposals issued last year by the office of literacy and essential skills, OLES. The call was a competition that will result in a very small number of organizations being selected to work together to form a pan-Canadian network. Organizations have been waiting for 11 months for a response from OLES. What can you tell me about this?

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

What I can tell you is that I'm expecting a briefing note on this shortly. I was talking to staff about this last night. We are looking at how we can get the maximum bang for the taxpayer's buck when it comes to programs.

My own view is that we should be focusing taxpayers' dollars in literacy programs that actually help people become literate. I know that's a quaint idea, but I think there's a good reason that the federal government, right across all ministries, has moved away from core programming funding and funding for advocacy and related work to actual service delivery. That's my orientation.

9:40 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

I want to stress again that upping the skills on literacy and the essential skills of the current workforce and helping them work up the chain as they improve their skills and make better pay is really a good way for us to go. I'm looking forward to your response to this.

I'm also wondering if Mr. Shugart could clarify something for me. This week in the House, the minister has insisted that the stream for lower-skilled occupations would include seasonal agricultural workers. I checked with the Library of Parliament, which we did before and after, and they insist that is not true, that in fact there is a distinct program called the seasonal agricultural worker program that is completely separate in terms of eligibility, processing, and administrative rules. The library also confirmed that a moratorium on the stream for lower-skilled workers would not inherently affect the seasonal agricultural worker program.

Can you please clarify this for me, Mr. Shugart, or the minister?

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

The deputy can certainly supplement this answer, but first of all, I don't think it's a revelation to say that the participants in the seasonal agricultural worker program are low-skilled, so when you talk about a moratorium on low-skilled temporary foreign workers, it would obviously include them, unless you specifically exclude them. In what we call the general low-skilled stream, we also have the general agricultural worker stream, which is the non-seasonal part of agricultural workers, that I think very clearly would be affected by your moratorium.

What I find interesting, and I say this sincerely, is that the New Democratic Party apparently wants to continue with those ag streams unaffected. Can we put you on the record as supporting that?

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

What I'm going to say, Minister—

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Actually, you're over your five minutes, so I'm going to cut off the discussion.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

I can't get an answer to my question.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

I would be ready to answer the question, but I will wait.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Can you make it a yes or no?

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

No. I will wait, because it's never just a yes or a no.

9:45 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Okay.

Thank you, Minister Kenney and Minister Bergen, for being here and taking time out of your busy schedules.

We'll recess—

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Mr. Chairman, I have a complaint. It's Mr. Siddall's first committee appearance. He probably was up studying all night and he got no questions. It's not fair.