Evidence of meeting #4 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was officers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kin Choi  Assistant Deputy Minister, Labour Program, Compliance, Operations and Program Development, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Brenda Baxter  Director General, Workplace Directorate, Labour Program, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Sari Sairanen  Director, Health, Safety and Environment, Unifor
Lana Payne  Director, Atlantic Regional, Unifor

4:15 p.m.

Director General, Workplace Directorate, Labour Program, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Brenda Baxter

Absolutely.

They're on site. They're looking at a particular situation, and they're the ones gathering the information with regard to a particular incident.

We need to ensure they have the support from their managers and directors with regard to particular situations, should they need more information and context in making a decision in some of those very difficult situations.

Ultimately, they do make the decision. As we've said, there is the right of recourse for employees and employers with regard to the decisions the officers are making.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Joe Daniel Conservative Don Valley East, ON

Do these amendments have the potential of improving the health and safety of workers, and if so, how?

4:15 p.m.

Director General, Workplace Directorate, Labour Program, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Brenda Baxter

That's a very important point.

I think we've given some examples of how we believe these amendments will improve health and safety in the workplaces. That's exactly the intention of the amendments. We've mentioned the improvements to the internal responsibility system and strengthening the role of the workplace parties, as they are best placed to identify and mitigate the hazards in the workplace.

So we need those parties to work together, and it's also enabling our officers to focus their efforts on situations where we do have very high-risk industries and getting in and working with the employers to prevent accidents and injuries before they occur.

4:15 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Labour Program, Compliance, Operations and Program Development, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Kin Choi

If I may add, we have a compliance continuum that we look at in terms of looking at our work, supplemented by business intelligence about which sectors, which industry, which companies may be problematic. I don't mean that they're necessarily bad employers, but they just don't know. They could be a new employer and so on.

When you look at that compliance continuum and you look at our officers' roles, if they're spending all of their time on the right side of the continuum, which is responding and addressing issues after the fact, we are missing the opportunity to actually prevent all of that from happening.

As I said, I've had the opportunity to go from coast to coast to shadow and to ride along with our health and safety officers, and I've done both, where they've had to deal with refusals in a very heated capacity, with lots of tensions and emotions and trying to resolve issues. They do a pretty good job of that, quite frankly. But it's a lot of energy spent that they're not spending on the front end, which is going and talking to big employers that have their challenges, that don't have a hazardous prevention program, that haven't built a culture with that. Spending time and energy and effort there has a bigger and a longer-term payoff, in our view. So by moving to this model of an internal responsibility system and freeing our officers up to spend more time in that domain, we think it will have greater results. We have been moving towards that model for quite some time, and you can see the rates for disability and injuries have steadily declined.

Imagine if we can spend more efforts on that, because the accidents and the injuries that are out there are not acceptable. We don't want to see more. We want to prevent them.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you.

We're just a little over time, but we've been a little over on most of the questions and the answers and that's working out well.

Now we move back to the NDP and Monsieur Boulerice.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This time I'm going to ask my question in English, if it's possible, because my quote is in English.

I have one question. After that I will give the rest of my time to Madame Sims.

I want to understand the new definition of danger, as cut out from the following passage. It “includes any exposure to a hazardous substance that is likely to result in a chronic illness, in disease or in damage to the reproductive system”.

It's disappeared. It's been replaced by occupational illness, which is not the same thing as chronic illness, disease, or damage to the reproductive system. Why are there changes regarding the reproductive system?

4:20 p.m.

Director General, Workplace Directorate, Labour Program, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Brenda Baxter

The definition of danger is just to clarify and simplify the definition. The definition that's proposed continues to cover the substance of the previous definition. It covers imminent or serious and its impact to life or health. As was mentioned earlier, there is a specific reference in the code, section 132, that speaks to provisions for pregnant and nursing women. That is considered covered within the definition, but it also has its particular section within the code itself.

The definition does cover impacts that can be longer-term, so occupational illness and non-occupational injuries.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Mine is a follow-up question to what Mr. Boulerice has started here.

The definition, for streamlining purposes, to save a few words on a piece of paper, is happening. But how does reducing the wording of the danger definition to only apply to severe and imminent danger possibly make workers safe? That's the bit I'm struggling with.

4:20 p.m.

Director General, Workplace Directorate, Labour Program, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Brenda Baxter

As has been mentioned, we need to appreciate that hazards exist in all workplaces. The intention is that workplace parties would identify and mitigate those hazards in the workplace before they become a danger. The workplace parties work together to ensure there is proper training for the equipment, the materials being used, the protective equipment, and the procedures in place.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Yes, I understand all that, and I've heard that a few times, so I get that bit. But I'm still struggling with how changing the definition of danger and then applying it only to severe and imminent danger can make workers safe. Using an example, I worked as a teacher, and schools were found to have quite a bit of asbestos, and sometimes that asbestos was exposed. Under these rules, could an employee refuse to work if she believes asbestos is present and could threaten her health?

4:20 p.m.

Director General, Workplace Directorate, Labour Program, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

4:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Labour Program, Compliance, Operations and Program Development, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Now I want to follow up on another question asked by my respected colleague across the way, Mr. Daniel. Why were all the powers previously conferred on health and safety officers—they are the experts, they know what the issues are—now being given to the Minister of Labour? I have serious concerns, because whichever committee I go to, such as my previous committee, more and more powers are being vested in the ministers instead of, in this case, health and safety officers. I know this may be getting into the political realm and you may not have a full answer. I'm okay if you say you do not know why, but I still wanted to get it on the record, that it's really beginning to bother me how much power is being vested in the ministers in all kinds of different ways.

4:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Labour Program, Compliance, Operations and Program Development, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Kin Choi

Quite a few questions are embedded there. I'll try to answer as many as I can.

I think the issue of danger is about clarifying, if I can go back to that. If you read the two definitions side by side, I think there is some rationale why 80% of it is not coming out as dangerous, because I think there is some confusion. Our goal is not to take away responsibility; our intention is to strengthen the internal responsibility system and make it clear so that people can understand what that's all about. So all the other protections.... I think people raised important points. What about pregnant women? What about asbestos? I think we've clarified today that they are still included in “danger”. It's up to the workplaces to address them, to make sure there is a hazards program. It's not to say that you can't work with a hazardous chemical. Inherently, that's what the workplace needs to do, if that is its business. But it's how you are preventing hazards through equipment. How are you addressing it through training and hazards prevention programs?

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

How long do I have left, Mr. Chair?

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

That's it, you're over time.

Going by the official clock, which is our BlackBerry, I'm going to allow one more round and go back to Mrs. McLeod.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think we need to recap this conversation.

The definition is not “severe”, as indicated, but it's “serious or imminent”? It includes long- and short-term impacts?

4:25 p.m.

Director General, Workplace Directorate, Labour Program, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

4:25 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Labour Program, Compliance, Operations and Program Development, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

The worker has the absolute right to refuse work that is deemed dangerous?

4:25 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Labour Program, Compliance, Operations and Program Development, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

So 80%—and again, this is on appeal—were deemed to have no danger. Is that accurate?

4:25 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Labour Program, Compliance, Operations and Program Development, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Kin Choi

That's it, yes.

November 19th, 2013 / 4:25 p.m.

Director General, Workplace Directorate, Labour Program, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

First of all, to have the focus to see if that extra step within the internal responsibility system can resolve 20% or 30%—it's not going to resolve 80%—and then not having to go that next step is freeing up the capacity of our health and safety officers. Is this accurate?