Evidence of meeting #139 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was workers.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Thank you, Chair.
I have a question. Can you penalize people to go to a trade that they do not want to do? I ask the question because the former government approached some of these priorities by putting penalizing effects on the EI system. That was supposed to deal with the issue. It didn't deal with it. From a policy side, I don't believe that you can penalize people to go to an occupation that they do not want to go to.
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Home Builders' Association
I can touch on that tangentially. When it comes to labour mobility within Canada, certainly the EI system right now isn't set up to help that. We saw that in spades in Alberta especially. When everything was booming in Alberta, there were major shortages, and yet we still had unemployment in, say, Atlantic Canada. Various proposals were put on the table at the time. I think they would be good on a permanent basis, whether for Toronto or anywhere else. If you want to encourage people within Canada to move, it's a big life change for many people to leave their families. If you could build into the EI system different approaches where you could use EI to help with labour mobility, offsetting costs and that sort of thing, and move people from one part of Canada to the other, that would be a great step in the right direction.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
I say that about the emphasis on apprenticeship because the same discussion occurred five years ago, 10 years ago and 15 years ago. This has not solved the problem. In terms of what you're recommending to the committee, and I would agree with you, on the language test, it's an issue in Atlantic Canada. We're all referencing the Atlantic pilot project, which has some positive points and some shortcomings as well.
Should we look more at a system where the individual can demonstrate their hands-on skills, in the skill they're doing, versus a written test to demonstrate proficiency? Would you recommend that to the committee? We keep hearing from a lot of folks on the issue, which we know about. However, the specific solutions that the committee could put in are vague.
General Counsel, Carpenters' District Council of Ontario
Yes, we would agree with the proposition that you've just put. From our point of view, we would like a GTA pilot or immigration change, however it is, that focuses on a person's actual ability to integrate into Canadian society and become a productive Canadian, like all of us, in a broader demonstrable way. That would include some form of language test but a lesser form. If you can show that you have become a valuable part of Toronto through your work commitment and the other things—
General Counsel, Carpenters' District Council of Ontario
While I have the microphone, just very briefly, I would encourage all of you, when you have a chance, to look at tab 11 of our speaking notes. You can see the kind of outreach we're trying to do. This is a women in construction initiative. It's run by our union with partners who help us. We bring them in for four weeks. The union pays them for those weeks. They go out on sites for 10 weeks. They get paid by their employers. The goal is to then have them sign into apprenticeships. We're subsidizing day care for young women from challenged communities through Toronto Community Housing.
Those are the kinds of programs we are doing right now. It's not enough to meet the needs.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
I have one more specific question, if I may.
You referenced an idea I like, because I understand the logistical issues of a company applying for temporary foreign workers because of their abilities; I like the concept that it's an organization, whether it's a union or employer-based organization. Are you prepared to accept the cost that the employer would? One part of it is how you cover that. When an employer applies for it, they pay the cost coming in of certain contractual obligations to the temporary foreign worker. Will the union or the employer-based organization step in and provide that role for the temporary foreign worker?
General Counsel, Carpenters' District Council of Ontario
Ah, now you ask a question that's near and dear to unions' hearts: when you get to the money. We as an industry...and I know this from the commitments our employer associations have; Mr. Yorke will back it up. It's we as an industry; unions don't have money. We get what we get from our employers, which they get from the work they do with our workers. I'm sure that we as an industry are willing to absorb costs to come up with a system that works for us as an industry. I won't speak for the home builders; they can speak for themselves.
I know—I know—they have committed to us firmly. The Ontario Formwork Association, the drywall association, ISCA, the interior systems—they are willing to pony up the money to establish training facilities overseas, to do screening, and to come up with health and safety programs and so forth for workers who could be accepted so they can come here and hit the ground running. Our industry is at crisis levels. I can tell you that they are willing—it's easy for me to spend other people's money, but they are willing, within reason—to look at those costs, because we need to do something.
Kerry Diotte Edmonton Griesbach, CPC
Thank you, Chair.
Mr. Lee, obviously, I've heard loud and clear from home building representatives that the stress test as implemented by the federal government is quite a disaster for your industry. I'm just wondering if you have any immediate solutions to that. It seems to me it was set down to solve an issue in Vancouver and Toronto, and one size does not fit all in the country. It certainly doesn't work in my riding of Edmonton, for instance.
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Home Builders' Association
Absolutely. It ties into skilled labour and jobs and everything else. Our recommendations are pretty simple, at this stage. One is to return to 30-year amortization periods for insured mortgages for first-time buyers. Young people make up the group that's most affected by this right now. It would get them back into the market in a responsible way. They're certainly well qualified and have many, many years to work, hopefully in a well-paying job, ideally in construction right now, to pay off that mortgage. They're well positioned that way.
The other is to make some tweaks to the stress test. We understand why it was put in at the time, but market conditions have changed dramatically. Frankly, in a place like Edmonton it's probably much worse. We're seeing 30% drops in starts in Alberta right now. That will show up in jobs over the next little while in a pretty scary way. We would certainly recommend adjustments or tweaks to the stress test that encourage people to get into five-year mortgages. Drop that stress test from two points, graduate it down to 0.7 basis points over five years, and even drop it for seven- and 10-year mortgages, encouraging people to lock in for a longer term to create stability.
Edmonton Griesbach, CPC
Are you getting any positive encouragement from the government on any of this?
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Home Builders' Association
I'll be able to tell you in a few hours.
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Home Builders' Association
I certainly have no inside information, but certainly this will be the next opportunity to really address this. I'll be headed from here to the lock-up.
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Home Builders' Association
If there is no relief, I think you'll see some continued challenges across the country in many places. If there is no relief, the 30% drop in first-time homebuyers we've seen over the past year will continue. Things like 30-year amortization and the stress test can be adjusted at any time. They don't require a budget. That could still happen in the short term. Certainly we know that it will be an election issue, because millennials are the largest voting bloc and this is their number one concern. There's lots of time for all parties to include these types of measures in their platforms, but we would certainly want to see that change now and not have to wait till October and an election.
Edmonton Griesbach, CPC
Being part of a national body, where is it significant? You mentioned that it obviously causes a problem in my riding of Edmonton. What other cities are impacted? Where are you hearing about?
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Home Builders' Association
We're seeing it all across the board. I think it's more dramatic, obviously, in those parts of the country where there were already economic challenges. Certainly Saskatchewan and Alberta have big challenges. Atlantic Canada has huge challenges. Newfoundland especially has a 50% drop in starts. These places really couldn't afford the time to have this kind of change. Normally, construction in an economic downturn is part of the solution, but in some ways the slowdown in construction is helping to drive, potentially, recessionary-type conditions in some regions. We surveyed our members, and 95% of them are saying that the stress test is the number one concern and it's having a direct impact on sales. That's all across the country.
President, Ontario Home Builders' Association
I can speak from personal experience.
President, Ontario Home Builders' Association
In the Kitchener-Waterloo and Cambridge area, which is just outside the GTA, over the last 20 years I've built over 10,000 units, all first-time homebuyer affordable product. In 20 years there were three purchasers we weren't able to qualify. In 2018, on a small project I'm working on, of 124 units of stacked townhome units, all affordable product, 13 first-time homebuyers who would have qualified in December on January 1 and the rest of the year were not able to qualify.
I think with some simple tweaks, as was said here, it won't drive up the cost. What this is doing is driving up the cost of rent and affordability. Since 30% of first-time homebuyers usually come out of the rental market into the new homebuyer market, and they can't do that now, we have a 1% vacancy in our area. Rents that four years ago were $1,200 to $1,300 are now $1,800. Those things are the realities.
