Evidence of meeting #139 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was workers.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:45 a.m.
Foothills, CPC
You're absolutely right. No one comes here for two years and wants to go home. I have Cargill in my riding, the largest meat processor in the country. I deal with this every single day. People want to come and be permanent residents.
You brought up an interesting suggestion, however, on the union side, if we can spread this around. What about a union-sponsored permanent residency program? Is that something you're talking about?
11:45 a.m.
General Counsel, Carpenters' District Council of Ontario
What we would look to, as we see the model, is a union and employer association-sponsored program to bring in workers—you say the temporary foreign worker program is tainted, so I won't use that term—for a period of time and let them work flexibly across our industry. An employer might need masons today but might not need the masons tomorrow, whereas the employer in the next subdivision over needs them. We need to be able to spread around the workforce, and industry associations and unions can allow for that while protecting workers to make sure they're not exploited. Then, at the end of the assessment period, whatever it is—a year or two years—if people can demonstrate that they have continual employment in the construction industry, they can switch to a path of permanent residency.
Canada is competing for skilled workers with every developed economy in the world. Germany needs them; Australia needs them; everywhere needs them—except, I guess, the U.K., which is sending them away. People will come to the GTA if they think there is a way to stay. They're not that interested in coming for two years.
I would say regarding the provincial nominee program that we worked really hard to try to get our members into it and through it. That's what my colleagues do every day. Other than Irish workers, who have certain obvious advantages, the bulk of our members cannot pass the language requirements. They just can't—we've tried, with classes and so forth—and it's no fault of their own. You work 10 hours on a job site; if you then tell a guy that you have to go to English reading and writing lessons.... They work hard. Could we try to loosen it up, if those kinds of programs are going to work for our particular group of immigrants?
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Ramesh Sangha Liberal Brampton Centre, ON
Thank you to the panel for giving a very good education to the committee.
I'm from Brampton. My riding is Brampton Centre. Brampton is a very fast-growing community, and there's a shortage of housing in Brampton. I listened to your comments regarding language. I've come across numerous persons, those who came here to work as temporary foreign workers and now are old enough...I can't say they're retired, because they're not getting any pension. They're undocumented. They are living with their families. They are mostly Portuguese, Italian.... These people used to go back to their country, come back to Canada again in the summer and work here, but they have the same language problem now. They are not able to get the papers, so they are living with their families. They don't want to leave their families.
What do you suggest by way of special plans through which they can be given value for work done towards getting permanent residency?
11:50 a.m.
General Counsel, Carpenters' District Council of Ontario
Is it undocumented workers we're talking about here? That's a somewhat different question from where we are in terms of the immigration system.
Clearly, and I'm not telling tales out of school here, there is an issue with respect to undocumented and under-documented workers, in the Toronto construction industry in particular. We know. We have union members working away on job sites who don't have the legal status to do so; nevertheless, they are being employed at full union rates with full benefits because we don't have the workers.
I'm not going to put my friends from the home builders on the spot, but I'm sure if you asked them in the hallways, they would acknowledge that every subdivision in Toronto has a share of undocumented workers.
We are a construction union. I spend my life defending workers. The most vulnerable workers in Canada are undocumented construction workers—
11:50 a.m.
General Counsel, Carpenters' District Council of Ontario
—and if we could bring them into the system, I would love to do it.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Ramesh Sangha Liberal Brampton Centre, ON
I have a question for you, Madam Leah Nord, or Mark Lewis, if it's good for you.
We have talked about temporary foreign workers filling up the temporary shortages and then going to long term.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Ramesh Sangha Liberal Brampton Centre, ON
Then, we have talked about bringing changes to national occupation classifications. What types of changes? One I heard was that there be some sort of local setup that can make those temporary foreign workers be selected in a better way. What type of changes do you want in federal national occupation classifications?
11:50 a.m.
General Counsel, Carpenters' District Council of Ontario
Is that for me? I don't know—
11:50 a.m.
Director, Skills and Immigration Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Go ahead, and I'll build off it.
11:50 a.m.
General Counsel, Carpenters' District Council of Ontario
For the trade of carpenter we are very lucky. Full carpenters are in a high enough NOC group that we can get into various programs for the fully skilled carpenter. The problem we have with these workers is that even though they are in a high enough NOC group to qualify for certain programs, most of the carpenters can't meet the other qualifications, primarily the language qualifications.
Below the trade of full carpenter—maybe the home builders can help out here—is a whole series of subcategories. Putting siding on a house is the work of a carpenter, but not every sider is a fully trained carpenter; that's a lower NOC group. Doing form work in certain circumstances—low-rise form work—can be the work of a carpenter, but not every person who is building house basements is a carpenter who can get into that NOC group.
There has to be recognition in the Toronto area in our immigration system that construction has become more specialized in certain areas and that some consideration to giving preference to lower NOC groups with respect to the skilled subgroupings we need that come within carpenter—sheet metal worker, some of the bigger ones—would be helpful.
I see Mr. Vaccaro is eager to....
11:55 a.m.
Director, Skills and Immigration Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Go ahead.
11:55 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Ontario Home Builders' Association
Just to build off what Mr. Lewis said, it is important to understand that, as I read the motion, it's basically the issue of understanding the skilled trades marketplace and the needs in the marketplace. Mr. Lewis is correct to say that there are NOC designations, carpentry, for example, whereby specific carpentry work needs to be operated by carpenters.
On the residential side, because siding work, forming work, framing work can be done by non-carpenters, it's still a skilled trade that we need, but it doesn't function in the same way as the current system. I would hope that part of the study would take a look at this and understand that on the residential side we have a need for framers, but that need is not a need for carpenters.
On the institutional side, the need for carpenters may be very specific. There may be contractual obligations whereby you need a carpenter to perform that work. I would hope that part of the analysis done by the study would provide a better understanding of this gradual reality of a skilled trade. A framer is still a skilled trade. It may not be recognized in the NOC system the same way; it's still a skilled trade. It's still a need that we have in our marketplace to deal with our housing demand issues.
11:55 a.m.
Scott Duvall Hamilton Mountain, NDP
I'd like to thank everybody for coming here today. It's very informative.
I'm kind of mixed up in terms of some of the past testimony and what I'm hearing today, so I want to ask Mr. Lewis a question.
Are we talking about skilled tradespeople or skilled labour? We're not just talking about having bodies.
11:55 a.m.
General Counsel, Carpenters' District Council of Ontario
No, we're talking about skilled labour. We're talking about carpenters who can go to work and who we can put to work at a full journeyperson rate tomorrow morning, at a total cost to the employer in excess of $50 an hour because of the skill and the productivity they have. That's what we need.
11:55 a.m.
Hamilton Mountain, NDP
Okay.
As Mr. Vaccaro mentioned, you can call them skilled workers and you can call them semi-skilled workers, whatever you want, but they are tradesmen, and you're talking about the same thing. You need people who are trained in those categories.
11:55 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Ontario Home Builders' Association
What we need are people who are trained in those categories. We also need to skill up our existing workforce. The way we build homes today is much different. The energy efficiency requirements and the demands are much different. We're now in a situation where we also need to skill up our existing workforce.
That individual who has been in the field as a framer for 15 years needs the opportunity to come back in and be retrained to understand the new detailing requirements needed. This is a combination of both.
I would hope that the study that comes forward through the motion looks at those different aspects, because we have a need. We need the bodies, but they are skilled tradespeople, right? Whether they're in a certified classification or a labour classification, it's still a skill.
11:55 a.m.
Hamilton Mountain, NDP
Thank you.
My next important question is for BuildForce.
I have a document here from the Library of Parliament. I understand that in January 2019, BuildForce Canada, a national construction industry association, included data and projections for the greater Toronto area.
This report says, “The report also considered the demand for and supply of labour in the GTA. It concluded that in the residential sector, 'established patterns of recruiting and mobility are sufficient to meet job requirements' in all construction related occupations in 2019 and beyond.”
Further, it also says, “In non-residential construction, demand in 2019 was higher for almost all occupations, with the report stating that 'employers will need to compete' for additional qualified workers 'to meet any increase' in construction. However, like the residential sector, by 2021, the labour supply of almost all occupations was projected to be sufficient.”
I am hearing something different today. Can you explain that?
11:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Ottawa Office, BuildForce Canada
I'll probably ask Bob Collins to weigh in on this, but I think what we were identifying there is the situation that Kevin has identified, which is that there has been a bit of softening in demand, related to some government policies. For the next couple of years, we certainly do see some softening on the residential side in terms of demand, but that is projected to tick up again once we get beyond 2022.
Again, this was specific to just the greater Toronto area, but if you look at some of the other regions of the country or the province, it's essentially the same situation. For the next couple of years, we do see a slight softening or moderating, but we're coming down from very high levels. I would see it more as a pause as opposed to any sort of real decline.
Noon
Hamilton Mountain, NDP
I have one more question in my two minutes, Mr. Lewis.
My understanding is that national mobility is a huge issue across Canada. There is no incentive for any skilled tradesman to come to another project or go to another province because there's no incentive for him to write off the taxes or anything. Let's say he goes from B.C. to Ontario, to the Toronto or Hamilton area, and makes $1,000 a week, but it costs him $400 or $500 for expenses. Is that a problem?
Noon
General Counsel, Carpenters' District Council of Ontario
Yes, that is a problem. We would love some form of action by the federal government in terms of giving incentives—a tax break or however you want to call it—in terms of being able to write off certain expenses to try to get workers to come to the GTA. The carpenters' union has local unions, as we tried to point out in our speaking notes, from every province all across the country. For five years, we've been appealing to our local unions in other parts of Canada. We're saying, “If you want to come to Toronto, we have work for you. Please think about it.”
I love Toronto. It's my city. Unfortunately, it's a very expensive place to live. That's an unappealing quality for a lot of other Canadians in other places. Anything that would help bring people to Toronto, we're all in favour of, but I would state that we still need help from the immigration system.
I want to make this clear. Although we have members working in the residential sector, the bulk of our members work in the ICI sector, the industrial, commercial and institutional sector, in and around Toronto. There, even though low-rise residential construction may be slowing down, the ICI needs—those infrastructure needs related to the unprecedented 10 to 20 years of growth in the GTA—remain, and they remain coming up. If you look at the BuildForce surveys and at the big projects in and around the GTA that are going to be ongoing, that's the crisis of skilled labour we face, given where the bulk of our members work.
