Human Resources Committee on March 19th, 2019

[Mark Lewis]

What we offer is experiential-based learning. Our apprentices learn from our journey persons. As our journey persons increasingly retire, we can't just turn on the tap. There has to be somebody to teach those apprentices, over their four years, the best practices of our trade, and so it's not just about the apprenticeships. We also need the journey persons who are going to train them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

We do have a little bit of time left before we need to suspend for a few minutes while we switch over the panel. Do we want another round? Does everybody want another question? Okay.

I'm going to say about four minutes, give or take. We'll start with Rodger.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks, Chair.

I'd like to start with you, Ms. Nord, on this one, and perhaps you have hard data you could share with us. On the temporary foreign worker program, what I know is that many businesses have used that now, in the absence of a pathway to citizenship for the lower-skilled. You may have addressed this in your opening remarks, and I apologize for not being here. Do you have a breakdown of how many businesses would be using the temporary foreign worker program to fill positions that are not temporary and that should be filled on a permanent basis? Do you have data on that?

[Leah Nord]

The data says it's a lot. The issue, as we've been discussing, is the temporary nature. It's not only the businesses; it's also the demand, the desire, the more temporary in nature, and the forthcomingness of that. Absolutely, though, I would say that it's the vast majority of our members.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

They would be using the—

[Leah Nord]

Yes.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Okay.

If anybody else wants to comment on that, by all means do.

[Leah Nord]

About the temporary foreign worker program or some of the pilot programs, I just want to say that whether you modernize them, change them or whatever, the real beauty, and the piece I wouldn't want to lose in the temporary foreign worker program, is the job offer; there's the aspect. That's a lot of what's happening in some of these pilot projects. I get that there are strengths and weaknesses to them. It's also very employer-driven. The employers are involved in terms of bringing the unions to...you know, this concept of it not being a guaranteed job but from contract to contract in industry. Then you come here and you're qualified, and you have a job.

The only other piece I want to take the opportunity to mention is the spouses. This is a family piece. I know we're focused on Toronto and the GTA, but in some of those other regions, if you look at open work permits and training and opportunities as well, that's equally important for the long-term sustainability.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Mark and Mike, the initiative with the women is an excellent initiative. How are the numbers coming out of that? What's the retention rate? If you're putting them in for four weeks, what are the numbers coming out of that?

[Mike Yorke]

As I mentioned earlier, this is something that's allowing us to change the ratio of women in construction. As was mentioned earlier, it's very low at 3% to 4%. When you see the graduates coming out of those programs, the retention is very good. We're tracking it so that maybe, after three or four years, we're still having 60% to 70%, and after those three or fours, we're starting to see folks who graduated from, say, a 12-week CRAFT program now graduating as a journeyperson in the carpenters' union. They've done their four years and they're now a journeyperson. With regard to retention, those are some of the highest in terms of that aspect.

[Mark Lewis]

Just so we're clear, the four weeks is before they go on a job site and when the union pays them. Then they go 10 weeks, and the employer pays them for on-site work. At the end of the 14 weeks, right now just under 75% of the women who started at the beginning are signing up for full carpentry apprenticeships, such as in drywall. That's at the end of their 14 weeks.

It's too early to tell what the retention rate is through the apprenticeship programs, but we recognize that women face special challenges there. We're trying to mentor them. If you look at the leaflet we handed out, you'll see that we're trying to make sure they have mentorship from tradespersons or more senior apprentices who are women to try to keep them in. We always have a drop-off rate with our apprentices, but we anticipate special problems for women, or more challenges for women, so we are really trying hard to keep them in the programs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

MP Falk.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Martins, I want to follow up with you. Do you have anything to add with regard to the question I had on education and university?

[Rick Martins]

I'd like to start by giving a little example. My son is 14. I can't bring him out to the work site until he's 16 because of Ministry of Labour rules. That's too late. I was nine. I'm not saying that was right or wrong, but I still have all of my body parts here. At 14 he can work at McDonald's and get third-degree burns from the fryers; my construction site's not any more unsafe.

We're losing the kids at that younger age. They're not getting exposed to it enough early on. Once they get into that routine, be it in retail, customer service, or whatever it is, it's hard to pull them back into something that they don't understand. That's one point.

The second point is that we don't have the right people in the education system. We hire great teachers—don't get me wrong—but there was a comment about counsellors coming from university. You need to get some of these journeypersons in. When I was in grades 6 and 7 and 8, Mr. Robertson was my tech teacher. He was a tradesperson who was converted to being a teacher. He lived and breathed it. The blood in his veins was sawdust. That's what you need. You need to get back to the grassroots.

I hope that answers your question.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Thank you.

I want to touch on another thing because I've heard a lot about it, ESL, English as a second language, and the possibility of lowering that requirement or making it not so stringent or whatever the case may be.

I'm wondering again what industry is doing, the unions, contractors or businesses, to help with ESL classes, whether it's writing or reading or even community.

I know teachers. I have a school in my riding that has a lot of ESL. Something that teachers actually struggle with is students coming into the classroom speaking English, struggling with it, but going home to their parents or whatnot within their own community and speaking their mother tongue because it's easier. It's actually hindering the students being able to speak English.

I'm wondering what industry is doing to help promote English skills.

[Mark Lewis]

We certainly offer rudimentary English language training for our members, and we encourage them as best we can to take advantage of opportunities in communities in Toronto—there are a lot—to learn English.

We have one problem, and I'm sure Mr. Martins and Mr. Vaccaro can talk about this. I don't want to diminish people speaking their own language—

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Definitely.

[Mark Lewis]

—because it's easier. On a lot of jobs and construction projects in Toronto, English is not the language of the workplace. You struggle if you don't speak Portuguese or Italian in certain trades.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Sure.

[Mark Lewis]

It's a real problem trying to get that. I don't want to diminish the commitment that people should make to Canada. I'm just saying that the commitment could be demonstrated in a different way from the ability to read or write English.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

I'm not concerned about commitment. What I'm concerned about is this. If we have students who then are having trouble speaking English, what type of strain is that going to put on our education system and our EAs, and are we going to have that overflow into a whole other issue?

Yes, Mr. Martins.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Speak very briefly, please.

[Rick Martins]

Just to touch a little bit on that, I think it's two different fields. First you want to look at the trades as a competency-based evaluation. It really is important, the fact that when a roofer is on a roof, he knows what he needs to do to be there safely and perform his job.

Language is important, but people will learn to communicate with each other. It's incredible how, as you said, you can go to a site and you've got Ukrainian, Croatian, Serbian, Portuguese and Italian, and they're all working and functioning at a very high level. They don't speak each other's language but they speak the language that they need to. If it's framing or if it's cement finishing, they can speak that language. That's important.

With regard to learning second languages, I'm an example. I went to school at the age of five. I didn't speak a work of English—and I was born here—because my grandmother raised me and Portuguese was our first language. Children will assimilate and we will learn to speak. I might not speak as well as other people in the room here, but I can speak from experience. My father can function in Canada and he can't read or write English, but he can communicate. I think we have to be careful with that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

The last four minutes go to MP Duvall, please.

[Scott Duvall]

Thanks.

On the language issue, most job sites do have a bit of a common language that we use. Do you know what I mean?

Madam Nord, one of the things that you commented on was the Atlantic immigration pilot program. You said yes, and then you got cut off. I wonder if you can expand on that, because there's no labour market impact assessment that's done on that. Would that be harmful in the greater Toronto and Hamilton area if we didn't have an impact assessment, if we brought that pilot project in here? Do you know if there's any update, if there are pros or cons on the pilot program?