Human Resources Committee on May 30th, 2016

[Paul Thompson]

The penalties that came into effect in the fall of last year, in December, for any offences committed after that date, are as I mentioned $100,000 per violation and up to $1 million plus a ban for up to a lifetime from use of the program, so there are pretty significant penalties for non-compliance.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll be sharing my time with MP Tassi.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Okay.

Ms. Tassi.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Before I begin I'd like to make a point of clarification.

MP Warawa has suggested that I was the one who said that permanent residence was a solution. In fact, when I said that, I was quoting from Mr. Wong's opening statement, which was corroborated by Professor Liew's comment. Just to be clear, those were comments I was making about the witnesses, not expressions of my own personal opinion.

Mr. Thompson may be the best one to ask this question to. We're hearing from some industries that have been using TFWs that they have tried everything and still can't find Canadian workers.

Do you believe this to be the case, and if you do, then what is the solution for these industries in finding employees to meet their needs?

[Paul Thompson]

There's a lot of opportunity to use the programming in place in the department and programming in provinces and territories to help find suitable Canadians. There are some partners who are doing significant work in this area, and some of our programs are active in this area.

Our youth employment strategy, for example, is finding youth at risk and using Canada Summer Jobs programming to help meet some of the needs.

Also, we're looking at using our labour market development agreements. These are the $2 billion—and growing to $2.5 billion—transfers to provinces under the EI program. Provinces are making increased use of these to meet some of the needs where there are shortages.

There are various program instruments that can be used to help meet these needs, and then the TFW program is intended, at the end of the day, as a last resort, if none of these programs is successful in attracting Canadians.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

You think, then, that there are enough programs, that they have the resources, and that once those are exhausted the temporary foreign workers program is the solution.

[Paul Thompson]

We require them to make some.... For example, an employer must reach out to some under-represented groups before we will actually process their labour market impact assessment. In many cases this results in outreach to some of our indigenous training organizations, for example. Once those avenues are exhausted, then yes, the TFW program could be used.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Do I have any time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

There's not enough for a question. I'm sorry.

We go over to Ms. Ashton, please.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you so much to our witnesses for coming back.

First, Mr. Thompson, I'd like to pick up on a question I asked the first time you were here. When last we met I asked you for the department's comments on Minister Mihychuk's intentions to abolish the temporary foreign worker program, intentions that were voiced on April 18. You said you couldn't speak for the minister, but perhaps you can tell us now whether anything has changed and whether the department is planning the abolition of the temporary foreign worker program.

[Paul Thompson]

Again, I can't speak for the minister. I know she's eagerly awaiting the report of the committee, and I think her responses to this question to date have been all about having referred it for examination by this committee and looking forward to the report. There have been no other policy pronouncements on the future of the program.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

That is interesting to note, because it was a very clear statement that was relayed to us. Obviously April 18 is weeks prior to our coming up with this study, so it's unclear how such an emphatic statement was made prior to the report's coming out and, frankly, prior to the study's beginning.

I want to go back also to the question we asked around inspections. You mentioned that 85 inspectors are on staff. Could you tell us how many on-site inspections have been made up to now in 2016 and what the rate of compliance with labour regulations was?

[Paul Thompson]

I have some figures on that.

You mentioned the number of staff we have on strength right now doing inspections. These are for both on-site inspections and other forms of inspections or reviews. There have been 6,280 inspections or reviews completed to date since April 2014.

The on-site inspections are an activity that's a little newer in the tool kit. We started those last fall. They've been ramping up. We currently have 74 that are completed or in progress, and we're on a path to do those with greater frequency in the future.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

And those are inspections relating to work places that temporary foreign workers are—

[Paul Thompson]

Those are the on-site inspections of employers with temporary foreign workers.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Mr. Judge or Ms. Welbourne, on April 4 Minister McCallum in one of his speeches said, “We're less keen on the temporary foreign worker stream because we want permanent residents.”

If we read this while keeping in mind the employment minister's intentions of ending the program, how is Immigration and Citizenship Canada preparing to transform the temporary foreign worker program into an immigration program?

[Maia Welbourne]

Let me make a point of clarification, that of course Minister McCallum is responsible for the international mobility program, which is the aspect of foreign workers coming in without the requirement for a labour market test. There are a number of elements to that overall program.

I think what Minister McCallum has said publicly is that he supports the premise of the programs whereby Canadians should be considered first for available employment opportunities, and certainly permanent residents who are arriving through immigration are part of that mix, and he would support, especially in an era of increasing levels, that permanent residents who have arrived through various streams be looked to as an important source of labour.

That being said, I think we've also seen appreciation for groups of temporary residents, such as international students and other foreign workers who have gained valuable work experience, being able to transition to permanent residency through various programs.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I appreciate the clarification, although the quote I read refers to temporary foreign workers. Again, what I'm seeking here is an understanding of the intent frankly of both ministers for the future of this program. Obviously the Minister of Employment's statement to get rid of the program entirely is a very strong one, and unfortunately, we're not getting background as to whether in fact that is the intention.

I want to go back to the issue of delays in processing in immigration. We know that delays are a constant problem that industry and various employers have faced, and obviously people who are seeking to work and live here. I'm wondering what the department is doing to speed up the expediting of these files and how many new resources are planned to be allocated to make sure that the processing part of the programs remains vigorous and enforced.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

There remains about one minute.

[Maia Welbourne]

Just for clarification, are you talking about the temporary resident side or the permanent resident side?

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I mean the permanent resident side.

[Maia Welbourne]

I think Minister McCallum has been very clear that addressing longer processing times is a priority for him, and he has made public statements to that effect.

I would note that processing times vary depending on what stream individuals are coming through. In any case, I've mentioned that the standard for express entry processing times is six months, and that processing standard is being met. In other areas, particularly those related to family reunification, a commitment has been made to address. I'm not in a position right now to talk about additional resources or what that exactly would involve, but the commitment is there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Excellent. Thank you very much.

I believe we're going back to Ms. Tassi.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

I'm going to ask my question of Mr. Judge, but before I do, let me acknowledge that previously on our panel, Mr. McAlpine shared two wonderful success stories with the temporary foreign workers program. It was great to hear about those. So with the challenges that we're raising, we just want to get into detail about how we can manage this program to the best of its ability.

One of the concerns, Mr. Judge, that we have heard is that Canadian wages have been suppressed because of the temporary foreign worker program. Has the department performed any studies on suppressed wages, and is there any evidence that has been issued to address this subject?

[Paul Thompson]

I think wage analysis would most likely fall under Employment and Social Development.

We monitor wages quite carefully. We track wages for hundreds of different occupations and do so for each occupation in many regions across the country, and these are posted. These form the basis for the way we process the application, so that the employer has to pay above the prevailing wage in a given occupation.

We also use the wage to determine whether it's a low wage and is processed in the low wage stream with an extra set of worker protections or whether it's processed in the high wage stream. The wage analysis we do is very important for setting a credible prevailing wage.

As for wage suppression, it's a hard question to get a definitive answer to. There was a little bit of analysis done in the context of the dramatic increase of temporary foreign workers in Alberta during the oil boom, and there was some evidence, including some by outside commentators, of wage suppression in that instance. That's about the only example I can point to in which we've discovered this with some degree of certainty.