Human Resources Committee on May 30th, 2016

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Bolduc, can you hear us?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

We'll just be one moment while we try to connect with Montreal.

While we're waiting here—

Yes?

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Mr. Chair, just in the interest of time, while they're getting hooked up, why don't we ask questions?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

It's going to be a few minutes.

Actually, it depends on whether they might want to put the question to them. We could go to Monsieur Deltell, but is your question...?

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I want to ask questions of the people in Montreal, but we can agree to make your point and I will make mine.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Do you want to switch, then? Is that what you're saying?

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I open the door to that.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Well, my questions were for Mr. McAlpine.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Okay, Ms. Tassi would be the next on the list, unless your questions were—

They are for Mr. Wong? Okay.

Thank you, everybody, for the cooperation.

Ms. Tassi, you have six minutes, please.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Witnesses, thanks for your presence here today, via skype or being physically present.

My question is for you, Mr. Wong. I understand that you're talking about the problem here really being a systemic problem and about permanent residency being the solution. We've heard this from various witnesses, but I'd like to focus on the abuses that are occurring and get your input on those.

The changes to the temporary foreign worker program in June 2014 introduced changes for monitoring and enforcement mechanisms available to Employment and Social Development Canada. The proposed changes introduced increased inspections using a tip line reporting system. I'd like your opinion on how effective those changes have been in ensuring employer compliance.

[Vincent Wong]

I think the tip line system is part of the tool box that we can use, but, of course, at the end of the day it is of little benefit for the actual migrant worker. Let's say if you're a migrant worker and you're being abused or your employer is not doing something right, you call this tip line. Okay. Presumably, some sort of inspection might happen or some follow-up will happen, so the employer will know or guess that somebody has been tipped off.

Often, what we see happen is that the employer will look around or think about ways to make sure there's silence on this. Of course, I'm not saying that all employers do this, just some unscrupulous employers whom we've seen at our clinic.

The tip line is not the same as, say, a provincial standards complaint. Let's say if I am not paid overtime or am owed unpaid wages, I can make a claim to the provincial ministry of labour and they'll follow through and, hopefully, I'll get what I'm due under the Employment Standards Act from that. But the tip line doesn't have that mechanism, obviously, so it puts employees as a group at risk. There's no benefit other than to make sure, from the government's point of view, that the employers are systemically aligning with that program. I would say that it's part of the tool box, but it's not perfect. It has to go with other things.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

With respect to other abuses, with the standards that are in place now, we've heard from witnesses that there's fear about making reports. Can you comment on how effective the current resources are and how they can be improved with respect to all abuses?

[Vincent Wong]

We're doing a lot of good things. I think we've identified the problem and we're trying to figure out what's the best model to address some of those problems.

I would say that because of the particularly marginalized position that a lot of these migrant workers come to vis-à-vis the employer, but also vis-à-vis the government, they're just really scared all the time that they're going to get deported. If you open up, let's say, settlement agencies or community agencies that can be trusted intermediaries, then they can handle some of these complaints and inform the migrant worker of their rights, as well as of the procedures. I think that would go a long way from society's point of view to addressing some of these problems.

First, we have to untie settlement agency funding from permanent residency only, which is the way the funding mechanisms work currently.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

In your opening remarks you spoke about the timeline and how that's frustrating and that what happens is that the complaint is never able to be resolved and the employers know that.

Can you give me an estimate as to what the timeline is when complaints are being pursued?

[Vincent Wong]

Of course, it depends on what sort of complaint it is. There are some occupational health and safety complaints, housing complaints, and employment standards. I do employment standards mostly, so I'm most familiar with those.

I would say that the average case, at the fastest, takes from six months to, at the most, five to six years.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

It takes six years before the complaint is addressed. Wow!

[Vincent Wong]

Yes, before some resolution happens.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

My final question is about what you said about not tying work permits tied to a specific employer but rather the workforce itself. Can you elaborate on that and how you would find that helpful?

[Vincent Wong]

What we're seeing now is that when a work permit is specifically tied to, let's say, a particular job at employer X—again, this is not the case with all employers—it creates a situation where the employer knows that whatever happens, if this person is no longer working at this job, they've violated the work permit and the employer can call CIC and get this person deported. That's the problem—and that's no matter what happens. Let's say I'm the employer and I'm paying these people $5 an hour cash under the table and I'm not doing their EI, I'm not doing anything. If somebody speaks out about it, it's see you later.

So where's this person going to go? We know that the employer has violated the TFWP provisions, but who's going to say anything about it? And especially if this person doesn't speak English well, where are they going to get the resources to do that? That's the kind of difficulty we're struggling with.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

We still don't have Montreal International back, but we're going to try to get them on the screen.

Mr. Deltell, would you like to continue with someone else, or will you keep your time for them as well?

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I'll keep my time for them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Ms. Ashton, would you like to ask questions of either Mr. Wong or Mr. McAlpine? I apologize for this, but there's not much we can do.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

It's an odd situation to be in. I'm fine ask my questions of the witnesses who are able to join us.

Perhaps we can deal with the other presentation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

We'll try to get Montreal back on the line. If you wish to continue, you have six minutes, please.