Evidence of meeting #141 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was workers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Senior Policy Analyst, Toronto Office, C.D. Howe Institute
Yes, but we frequently analyze that data.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
That's critical. If that's what you're basing your data on, it's critical, then, that the Stats Canada information be broad and reflective, which would only be available through the long-form census data process. Correct?
Senior Policy Analyst, Toronto Office, C.D. Howe Institute
Yes. But there is something that we can get from the data. For example, some industries, if they have a larger proportion of temporary workers, offer lower wages on average, and some industries offer lower hours of work. Through that, we can to some extent conclude, for example, that in some industries, workers in precarious employment are more available, basically.
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bryan May
I'm sorry, Mr. Morrissey, but you don't really have time for another question. Maybe you can ask something quickly. Please make it very brief.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Okay.
You mentioned a rise in contract and temporary work. Do you have any data as to why this is occurring? You referenced data from 1997. Do you not have anything more current?
Senior Policy Analyst, Toronto Office, C.D. Howe Institute
The earliest data we have is from 1997, again through Statistics Canada. Comparing data with that specific year, there has been a rise. The biggest rise in temporary work was around that time. In earlier studies, they calculated some numbers in the past of just overall precarious work. Before 1997 the rate was low, but with changes in the economy, as I mentioned, because of globalization and changes in workers' preferences, it shifted toward temporary work over time.
Conservative
John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB
Thanks to our witnesses for being here today.
Ms. Mahboubi, you talked about some numbers at the beginning of your presentation in terms of the increase in precarious employment. In our previous panel, we had CFIB and CPA Canada saying that the percentage of precarious workers hasn't really changed in decades.
I'm wondering if you have a definition through C.D. Howe of what precarious employment is. That would certainly help us, as we go through this process, as to why there's a discrepancy in the numbers among the different groups.
Senior Policy Analyst, Toronto Office, C.D. Howe Institute
For this calculation, basically, as I mentioned at the beginning of my statement, to calculate the percentage, which has been stable since 1997, I considered four types of employment: temporary positions, part-time positions, full-time employment with multiple jobs and unincorporated self-employment.
As even other witnesses mentioned, this doesn't suggest that all workers in these types of employment are in precarious employment, but these types of employment may, to some extent, capture the features of precarious work. The calculation is just based on those numbers.
Conservative
John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB
Thank you.
I know it's hard. You talked about those four different types of employment, but if you were to give an example to us as a committee about how we would describe precarious employment, would you have one definition that would help us? Does C.D. Howe have a definition of precarious employment, or is it just taking these different factors into account when trying to identify it?
Senior Policy Analyst, Toronto Office, C.D. Howe Institute
There is basically no consensus over how to define precarious work, but again, as I mentioned at the beginning of my statement, because we usually refer to types of jobs that are low paying with low benefits or no access to benefits, they are insecure, but as even Colin Busby mentioned, we need to distinguish which is more important, uncertainty or low income.
For example, not all workers in temporary work face low income, but maybe because they are on contract, they are uncertain about whether they will have the same job next year or not, but they earn a lot today.
There are several types, and it's really important to distinguish between different types of employment, but the problem is data. Having access to data is really important here, and researchers in Canada basically don't have access to very valuable data to analyze that.
Conservative
John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB
Thank you, I appreciate that.
Ms. Nord, thank you very much for coming back. It's like you're a member of the committee now, it seems.
You briefly touched on this, and I want to ask you to maybe expand on it. We've heard from business owners on the new skills training program that was in the recent budget that it actually doesn't happen unless they get an agreement with the provinces and territories to change their leave provisions, so it's a program that may not happen at all.
The onus that's being put on businesses is that they have to provide four weeks' paid leave as part of that. Please touch on what the impact of that program on business owners would be, especially in the absence of metrics or accountability on what that training would be, and if it would benefit the business.
Director, Skills and Immigration Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Yes, and again, I want to reiterate from the business community that we are advocates for training—
Director, Skills and Immigration Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
—and upskilling across the board. The devil is in these details, and there aren't the details here either. It's increased business cost, and it's increased coverage for a period of time off, for what type of course and how that will.... There are increased costs because it's flowing through the EI program as well, from that point of view. When does this leave happen? How does it happen? What are the parameters? Where are those decisions made? We have more questions than answers at this point.
Conservative
John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB
Yes, I don't think there's any question that we have to have a focus on training. We certainly had one of our witnesses who was here again today talking about focusing as early as junior high school and high school on entrepreneurship and skills training, things I think we've lost some focus on. From the business perspective, we also heard CFIB say that their members have committed $9 billion to training that no one is really accountable for.
Are there some ways to address precarious employment with more focus on how we support that skills training, whether it's additional programs for apprenticeship or discussing curriculum with provinces to bring those entrepreneurial and skill training programs to an earlier age?
Director, Skills and Immigration Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
An earlier age, absolutely, and you've heard us say that as well, whether it be in the trades, whether it be around these soft skills or whether it be in literacy and digitization.
I think an overall comment going forward is something that Mr. Busby said as well. It's these tripartite discussions with all of the stakeholders and all of the players at the table, which again are colossally difficult, but I think these are the discussions that have to be had.
Businesses are willing to absolutely play their part. They recognize that importance. In terms of funding around work-integrated learning, that student, who is no longer only your traditional student, might not stay, but if it helps solve a business issue, that will help.
Everyone has a role and responsibility. On Tuesday, there was some talk around individual companies participating for this global greater good of skill training in the economy. I think there are fine lines between it all, but it has to be a discussion, absolutely.
Liberal
Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB
Good afternoon to my colleagues, and thank you to our presenters for some very informative testimony.
Mr. Roberts, my riding is Saint John—Rothesay, in southern New Brunswick, and it's a unionized riding. I would just like to touch on a couple of things. The president of the CLC, Hassan Yussuff, has been in Saint John. We laid wreaths together for the day of mourning at Rockwood Park, at the Frank and Ella Hatheway monument just last year, the year previous and the year previous to that. It's always great to see him.
Can you briefly touch on your views of the importance of unionization with respect to employees' rights and precarious employment?
National Director, Social and Economic Policy Department, Canadian Labour Congress
I'll try to be brief.
I think it's really irreplaceable and invaluable as a way to ensure workers' rights in the workplace. I think we have a long way to go to improve the compliance and enforcement of labour standards in this country, but there's really no substitute at the end of the day for workers' own self-organization to ensure that standards in the workplace are being met.
That goes to the issue of access to collective bargaining as well. There's talk about collective voice for non-union workers, but in fact, collective bargaining is something different. It goes to the issue of the power imbalance that we've talked about, the vulnerability.
The government has now ratified all eight core ILO conventions, including the right to organize and the right to form independent organizations for the purpose of collective bargaining. We think the Government of Canada has an obligation to actually promote access to collective bargaining as a charter right in Canada, and to make it available to more workers who want it.
Liberal
Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB
Thank you for that.
My next question is again for you, Mr. Roberts. At present, the system of labour standards enforcement is largely complaint-driven. This requires workers to not only know their rights—I see this all the time in my office—but also to know how to use the existing system to make a complaint.
In your view, are there ways to make labour standards less reliant on complaint-driven mechanisms?
National Director, Social and Economic Policy Department, Canadian Labour Congress
Absolutely.
I think there's a deterrence gap in Canadian labour standards law and enforcement. I think that there's been a move too far toward incentivizing employers or encouraging them to live up to the basic rights and entitlements of workers in the workplace. I think there has to be a renewed effort to deter the kinds of business practices that amount to unfair competition with respect to employers that actually do observe the law and—