Evidence of meeting #142 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was workers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Thank you. My question is for Ms. Bégin of Stats Canada. Some witnesses have cited StatsCan data to argue that precarious employment is not on the rise, or not an issue. Would you have the same interpretation of the data you're looking at?
12:50 p.m.
Director, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada
Thank you for the question.
As we said in our presentation, there isn't really a single definition. However, we have to take into account certain multidimensional elements.
Based on the analyzed elements, which are age groups, provinces—we know there is a difference in terms of provinces or regions—or population groups, the answers to the question of whether an individual has a precarious job or not can vary.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Do you have data on which sectors or industries rely the most on precarious workers, contractors, or subcontracting?
April 9th, 2019 / 12:50 p.m.
Director, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada
We do have some information. I mentioned only two industries during my presentation, but we would be happy to provide that information afterwards as a follow-up action item.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Ms. Bégin or Mr. Dale, in your view, could measuring precarious employment positively impact government programs and policies?
12:50 p.m.
Assistant Director, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada
We are very committed to measuring all aspects, as many aspects of quality of employment as we can. We already have measures for examples of non-standard employment.
We recognize that we can improve, that there are data types that we can improve, and that we can fill some of those gaps. It's certainly our objective to provide policy-makers with as much detail as possible on a very complex, a very multi-dimensional problem. As we outlined in the presentation, we're taking some concrete initiatives on skills, for example, and on developing and refining our definitions of different forms of employment to fill those data gaps.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Do you see a connection between precarious employment and people having to work later in life? There was testimony given that people are rejoining the workforce later. Does that have to do with whether that is precarious or not?
12:55 p.m.
Director, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada
The short answer is that we needed to carry out longitudinal studies to be able to answer you.
At Statistics Canada, we have started to ask certain questions on that topic in our labour force survey, for example, by trying to figure out whether people who continue to work after a certain age do so by choice or by necessity. To answer the question properly, we would need to be able to examine the results after a period of several years.
12:55 p.m.
NDP
Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My question is primarily for Mr. Michaud.
You told us that amendments have been made to the Canada Labour Code. You also talked about the expert panel.
Although it is important for labour standards to exist for people with non-standard jobs, is it enough to improve accessibility? That is a first step, but, throughout your presentation, you talked about how the labour market has changed.
Statistics Canada also talked to us about that, especially when it comes to emerging industries and the digital economy. Instead of improving labour laws, would it not be necessary to carry out an in-depth review, as the labour market is completely different than it was when those laws were drafted?
12:55 p.m.
Director, Economic Analysis Division, Economic Policy Directorate, Department of Employment and Social Development
That is a very good question.
I don't have a clear answer. From the outset, I would come back to the need to have a definition that would help identify people and measure how this has evolved. With the increasingly rapid technological changes, what will be the repercussions on workers and precariousness? We can speculate, but we do not have exact measures.
So, providing regulations and protections for workers who are most likely to be in a precarious situation is a good element. However, it is essential to be able to follow and identify them.
12:55 p.m.
NDP
Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Okay. Thank you.
One of your colleagues, Mr. Brown, has heard me say a number of times that it was necessary to comprehensively reform the employment insurance system. We are still waiting for that to happen.
Witnesses and representatives of various organizations have come to say before the committee that a large number of workers have contributed to the employment insurance plan and did not have access to it, in part because they did not have enough hours worked. We have often heard that.
What adjustments could we make to the employment insurance system, aside from reducing the number of hours of work required, to further help part-time or contract workers with temporary jobs?
12:55 p.m.
Andrew Brown Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment, Department of Employment and Social Development
Thank you for the question.
Concerning the employment insurance program, the bottom line is that a number of measures are in place to monitor the program's coverage. The Statistics Canada investigation on employment insurance coverage is important, as it helps see the evolution of the system over a long period.
Over the last 10-year period, eligibility for EI benefits has been relatively stable. It's about 84% right now, but we know there are significant differences between people who are in permanent employment versus people who are in temporary employment. It's much higher, at about 92%, for people in permanent employment, versus about 77% for people in temporary employment. Again, not having a specific measure for a definition of precarious employment, we're not able to provide a measure in terms of the eligibility for EI among workers in precarious employment.
12:55 p.m.
NDP
12:55 p.m.
Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment, Department of Employment and Social Development
In general, to have access to the program, people need to have insurable employment, which is not the case for self-employed workers. That is why they do not have access to the program. The same goes for many individuals with non-standard jobs.
1 p.m.
NDP
Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Like Ms. Bégin said, those are self-employed workers found in a number of emerging industries, such as the digital economy.
Since that situation is becoming increasingly common, should consideration be given to making those jobs insurable?
1 p.m.
Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment, Department of Employment and Social Development
I would absolutely agree with that. One way, as you mentioned, is to take a look at the number of hours, but that helps to qualify only the people who are already in some kind of insurable employment. We need to also take a look at those workers who are not in insurable employment and think about whether there is a way to bring them into the EI program or about some other kind of support that would be provided to workers who do not currently have a job that would be considered insurable.
1 p.m.
NDP
Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Thank you very much.
In December 2018, Statistics Canada published a study on job quality. Definitions in that study were fairly general. In our study, we are talking about using precariousness indicators. A general approach can involve both advantages and disadvantages.
Do you think it would be useful—and possible—to create precarious employment indicators based on the characteristics brought up in our study?
1 p.m.
Assistant Director, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada
It's a complex question. We can certainly produce a range of indicators of precarious employment. We do already have a range that we can expand on. There's a separate question. I think people may be looking for one silver bullet, a single-measure indication of precarity, and I would recommend that people think more in terms of a basket of measures, a range of measures that touch on different aspects of precarity, such as pension coverage, wages, hours, permanence of employment. That's the range of indications we currently have, and we're committed to expanding it.
I honestly don't see a way of coming up with a single measure that would quantify precisely the number of people in a precarious position.
1 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bryan May
Thank you very much. I would agree it is a very complex issue, as we are all learning through this study.
That does bring us to the top of the hour, and unfortunately, it brings us to the end of the witness stage of this study.
I want to thank MP Sheehan for bringing this motion to us. I would like to thank all of you for being here again to bring the departmental perspective. Thank you to my colleagues, those to my left and right, those in the translation booth, as well as the people behind us who make it possible to be heard beyond these walls. Thank you very much.
The meeting is adjourned.
