Human Resources Committee on May 16th, 2019

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Okay, then, we talked briefly about the B.C. home ownership plan at the public accounts committee and you mentioned that it was a different program.

I've been told now by several groups—and it's on the record at the finance committee—that it was a much more generous program than the shared equity mortgages being offered right now. Additionally, there was a 43,000-person target to reach. It only reached 3,000 after 15 months, and it was dropped as a program. The B.C. government abandoned it.

It shares a lot of similarities with the shared equity mortgage program as it's being proposed right now. Do you think that this is a mistake then to proceed with it?

[Evan Siddall]

I don't, sir. It was different program in one very important respect: The B.C. home ownership plan was a loan of down payment money. This is not a loan. This is a form of equity.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

The difference is that this is government borrowing. It's $1.25 billion from the Crown borrowing programs. It is borrowing.

[Evan Siddall]

It is borrowing by the government. I did not speak specifically enough.

On the part of the homeowner, the homeowner is not subject to a claim on that amount by us until they make that decision, nor do they have to pay us interest. Both of those would have applied in the B.C. home ownership plan.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Pardon, you just said on the homeowner's side...but that specifically hasn't yet been declared by the government.

Has that public policy decision been made, that when the homeowner sells the home, it will trigger the government's equity stake in it to then get the proceeds back?

[Evan Siddall]

The terms and conditions have not been finalized; that is true.

However, it is certainly consistent with the shared equity mortgage program generically, sir. It would be a sharing of gains and losses as recognized at the point of sale, or other circumstances that are yet to be determined.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I have a stack of responses to information requests made of the B.C. Freedom of Information office from that time period.

In a December 19, 2016 email between you and Gregory Steves, deputy minister for the Office of Housing in the B.C. government.... There was an exchange with staff at CMHC and you as well. There was also joking around at one point about how public servants aren't always able “to set the direction” of public policy.

It sounds like the combination of what I've heard at the public accounts committee, and I—

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

On a point of order, Chair, we're here to talk to the department about the mains. I don't know the relevance of this.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

On the point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

I can rule on this, but if you wish—

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I'm happy to do so.

To Mr. Long, under vote 1 and vote 10, the department is being asked to act as an agent of the Crown. Therefore, the salary spending that the department will be doing and the $2.6 billion is what we're about to approve at this committee.

That's why it's relevant to this discussion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Agreed. Thank you.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

We paused your time, so you have 41 seconds left.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Hopefully, we'll have another round then.

In that exchange, though, it sounded like you were saying that the CMHC did not agree that the B.C. home ownership program could not set the direction. You were unhappy with it, and others in your department were as well.

However, it seems like you, CMHC, are going to be deciding on a lot of the public policy terms and conditions of this federal shared equity mortgage program.

[Evan Siddall]

Those decisions will be made by the Minister of Finance, not by me at all. We will implement them, but they'll be made by the Minister of Finance.

The particular exchange I think you're referring to, sir, relates to the fact that we, as an insurer—CMHC—had to make a decision about the applicability of the B.C. home ownership program as a form of adequate down payment or not. We charge a surcharge in the case of unconventional down payments, such as a loan. Because it was a loan, as opposed to the shared equity mortgage program, we thought it was unconventional and we charged a premium on top of it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

MP Benson, please, for three minutes.

[Sheri Benson, NDP, Saskatoon West, SK]

Mr. Flack, I just want to make one comment about trades training and apprenticeship for your consideration. For many people, especially indigenous folks and women, or non-traditional people in the trades, they often have to live on employment insurance in order to take the training portion, which is 50% of their income, and it doesn't sustain them. That is a barrier.

The other barrier, especially for folks in Saskatchewan, is the ability to get to trades training. The fact that we no longer have an inter-city provincial bus service is a big deal. I just mention that to encourage your looking at issues from a holistic perspective, because sometimes when we do that, we tend not to blame the victim, but ask, “Why aren't you in it?”

There are lots of reasons, so I just wanted to tell you that. I've been around that conversation for a long time, and I'm sick of hearing that there's a skilled trades shortage. We've been listening to that for over 20 years, so I'd like something to really happen there, and I think those are some of the issues.

Mr. Siddall, I just want to ask you to respond. I've raised in the House of Commons—and now Adam can't say anything—some of the challenges people are having with the co-investment fund. I don't have enough time, but I have a list of some of the challenges that I've raised them in the House. I've been assured that they've been addressed. I just want you, as succinctly as you can, to let me know what some of those issues were and whether you've dealt with them, because it's been very unsubscribed, especially in my province.

Thank you.

[Evan Siddall]

As of April 15 of this year, there have been 49 letters of intent signed in nine provinces and two territories for more than $180 million under this particular fund. We are in the ramping up phase. One of the things we've done is to have allowed letters of intent to count earlier so that people can secure that and get additional funding. We've accelerated our own processes, even as we stand up the—.

[Sheri Benson, NDP, Saskatoon West, SK]

What about some of the challenges with applying for it? I know some groups have abandoned the process because of the long application. It was difficult to navigate. You're at the end of the application, and you have to go back to the beginning, and you couldn't. You had to erase all of it.

I guess I'm looking for some basic things you've done to improve the process. Are you saying you allowed more options around those who can be co-funders or supporters of an application?

[Evan Siddall]

The essential thing we've—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

A brief answer, please.

[Evan Siddall]

The essential thing we've done is to set up a client solutions function where people will do outreach to applicants and effectively hold their hand through the application process, or do the work on their behalf that they can approve.

[Sheri Benson, NDP, Saskatoon West, SK]

But you haven't changed the application?

[Evan Siddall]

The application, unfortunately, requires information that, by law, we need to have in order to risk the investment.