Human Resources Committee on Oct. 4th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Good morning, everybody.

It's a pleasure to have everybody here again today. I'm looking forward to getting this under way.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, June 13, 2016, the committee is commencing its study on poverty reduction strategies.

It is my absolute pleasure to welcome Minister Duclos here today.

Good morning, Minister.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Minister of Families]

Good morning.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

I understand that you have a brief presentation. Before that, I just want to recognize the others in the room.

We have, from the Department of Employment and Social Development, Louise Levonian and Jacques Paquette. Louise is deputy minister and Jacques Paquette is senior assistant deputy minister, strategic and service policy branch. Also with us today from the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation are Michel Tremblay, senior vice-president, policy, research and public affairs; and Carla Staresina, vice-president of affordable housing.

Welcome to you all.

Just as a reminder to everybody, we are televised this morning.

Mr. Duclos, without further ado or pomp and ceremony, I turn it over to you, sir.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

Thank you for granting me the privilege and the pleasure of being with you this morning. Thank you also for signalling the presence of some of our key officials at ESDC and CMHC.

We share a vision for Canada that is both positive and ambitious. We all believe in a country that is diverse, prosperous and inclusive, a country where individuals have real and equal opportunities to participate fully in our society and our economy to their full potential.

Reducing poverty is the first step to putting all Canadians on an equal footing.

I understand the committee is beginning its study on the issue of poverty in Canada. While this is also an important part of my mandate and of great personal interest to me, it is a complex issue that no single government, organization, or individual can tackle alone. With that in mind, I would like to table a discussion paper entitled “Towards a Poverty Reduction Strategy”.

This document is designed to open a dialogue on the subject of poverty reduction in Canada. It includes perspectives and issues that, and I say this very respectfully, may be helpful to you as you conduct your work.

Let us start from the beginning. About one in every 10 Canadians lives in poverty. We know that these Canadians are less likely to have access to nutritious food, adequate housing and safe working conditions. They experience shorter life expectancies and higher rates of chronic diseases, certain cancers, stress and mental health problems.

We have the ability to help change this, and we will do so by working together.

That's why we intend to work with community and not-for-profit organizations, indigenous people, universities, companies and, importantly, those people who themselves have direct experience with poverty.

Mr. Chair, as we develop our strategy, we are mindful of the poverty reduction strategies and initiatives that have already been implemented by provinces—all of them except one—territories, and municipalities. It will be important for our Canadian poverty reduction strategy to build on and align with these existing efforts. Let me signal that we will also build on the many parliamentary studies that have been produced in recent years. That again signals the important work that you're about to do.

You also probably know that I have recently announced our new “Tackling Poverty Together Project“. It is to no one's surprise that a large number of innovative and groundbreaking initiatives to tackle poverty are taking place in towns and cities across the country. This project consists of case studies in six communities across Canada that will help us better understand poverty and how to reduce it by establishing direct and inclusive partnerships with community organizations that play a vital role in delivering programs and services that support our people and our communities.

At the same time, this project will allows us to learn directly from people who know first-hand what it is like to live in poverty.

As I signalled earlier, Mr. Chair, and as you know, poverty is a complex social issue. There is no single cause and no single solution. If we are going to reduce poverty effectively in Canada, we need a multi-dimensional approach.

The discussion paper that I just mentioned highlights a range of areas that you might want to look at, which affect and are affected by poverty, including income, social participation, security, housing, employment, and health. For example, too many Canadians still lack an adequate income to meet their basic needs. An estimated three million Canadians are living in poverty—that's about 1.9 million families.

One of the things I would like to point out is that poverty is not synonymous with unemployment. Over 700,000 Canadians live in an household where the main income earner is considered working poor. Canadians in this group of working poor work similar hours to the average, yet they earn less money and are more likely to face unpredictable work hours, making it especially difficult to balance work and family responsibilities.

In addition, income is so deeply connected to other aspects of poverty that a change in status can signal the start of a dangerous spiral that is a problem not only for those people, but also for their entire family. For example, a significant loss of income can make it impossible for an individual or a family to keep a stable housing situation. As we know, without stable housing, it becomes difficult to find and keep employment.

In our poverty reduction discussions, we have to admit that safe, adequate, and affordable housing is vital for one's well-being.

Our objective in that regard is clear. We want to re-engage the federal government in improving the housing conditions for all Canadians, including those living in the north and in indigenous communities. For that purpose, we are currently developing a national housing strategy, which is going to be the first housing strategy in four decades.

This strategy is supported by existing collaboration among the various levels of government, indigenous and private sector organizations, not-for-profit groups, and housing experts. In that regard, budget 2016 signalled a milestone, the historic reinvestment of $2.3 billion, the first such reinvestment in over 20 years, in new funding to improve access to more affordable housing for Canadians.

Budget 2016 also provides significant additional funding to increase affordable housing for seniors, housing in northern communities; to support the renovation and retrofit of existing social housing stock, often in difficult conditions; and to build and renovate shelters for victims of family violence.

We are also taking steps to ensure that those low-income households living in non-profit and co-operative social housing projects, where operating agreements will expire over the next two years, can continue to live in their rent-geared-to-income units. Up to $30 million is available to renew subsidies for all federally administered social housing units until the end of March 2018.

Budget 2016 also included two important new initiatives to encourage the construction of affordable rental housing and to fight poverty.

Through the rental housing financing initiative, up to $2.5 billion in low-cost loans will be made available over five years to municipalities and housing developers during the earliest and riskiest phase of developing affordable rental housing.

Just last week, on Friday, I announced that over $200 million is being provided by CMHC for an affordable rental housing innovation fund to test innovative financing, partnership, and business approaches to encourage the construction of up to 4,000 affordable rental housing units.

Budget 2016 also announced additional funding of nearly $112 million over two years, which represents the first investment in 16 years in the Homelessness Partnering Strategy, or HPS.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Excuse me. We seem to have an issue with the translation.

If you could go back maybe two sentences, that would be great. Thank you.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

It's a good story, so I will repeat it.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Budget 2016 also announced additional funding of nearly $112 million over two years, the first investment in 16 years into the Homelessness Partnering Strategy, or HPS, to strengthen the work done in communities to support homeless Canadians in finding stable housing.

In short, Budget 2016 puts in place a number of significant housing measures for two key reasons. The first is that we knew there was a crying need for them. The second is that we wanted to send a clear signal that the Canadian government's leadership is being reestablished in response to our families' housing needs.

Speaking of Budget 2016, we would of course be remiss if we did not mention the new Canada Child Benefit, which will ensure that nine out of 10 Canadian families will receive higher benefits than before. On average, these nine out of 10 Canadian families will now receive nearly $200 more per month, and this amount is not taxable. This new monthly benefit is more equitable, simple and fair. Thanks to this new benefit, about 300,000 children, along with 200,000 of their parents, are transitioning out of poverty.

The poverty rate among our children and families will decrease from 11.2% to 6.7%, the largest drop in our country's history, and will result in the lowest child poverty rates in the entire history of our nation.

In addition, we are actively working with our partners in order to find out how this benefit can best support families and First Nations living on reserve and in the North. We are also looking to eliminate all obstacles that could prevent our First Nations families from accessing the Canada Child Benefit.

Moreover, in Budget 2016, we also increased the Guaranteed Income Supplement for Single Seniors. This measure will considerably improve the financial security of about 900,000 seniors throughout the country and lift about 13,000 of them out of poverty through an increase in the Guaranteed Income Supplement benefit, which could reach nearly $1,000.

Finally, we have also concluded an agreement with the provinces to improve the Canada Pension Plan to make up for the fact that many Canadians will likely not save enough for retirement, putting them at risk of poverty in their later years.

As you know, the CPP provides workers with portable, fully indexed, lifetime benefits, and it does so with low administrative and personnel costs.

As lifespans increase, enhancing the CPP will reduce the risk that Canadians will outlive their savings. It will also protect them from market downturns and provide a steady and secure stream of income when interest rates are low.

From a poverty reduction perspective, this enhancement is good news. It will help low-income workers, both now and in the long term. While low-income workers will make contributions for the enhanced CPP, these higher contributions will be more than offset by an increase to the working income tax benefit, also called the WITB, which will lift almost 6,000 Canadians immediately out of poverty in the next few months. In addition, this enhancement will give low-earning households more financial protection in the event of a disability or the death of a wage earner, through higher disability and survivor benefits.

As a result, low-income workers will be better off during their working years, thanks to the WITB, and better off when they retire because the enhanced CPP will boost their total retirement income. For example, if the enhancement were fully in place right now, the number of Canadian families at risk of not saving enough for retirement would be reduced by 25%, from 24% to 18%. Nearly 300,000 families would no longer be at risk. For those still at risk, the degree of under-saving will be reduced substantially. Analysis by Finance Canada indicates that the median after-tax retirement income gap will be cut from $8,300 to $3,700, that is, by more than 50%.

Therefore, not only will the enhancement help to ensure a more secure retirement for middle-class Canadians, it will also contribute to our efforts to reduce poverty now and in the future.

All of these actions I have discussed reflect our determination to reduce social inequality and to ensure prosperity for all Canadians. The study you will be carrying out in the committee will play a large role in achieving this goal.

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, as we continue to partner on addressing poverty reduction in Canada, I would like your views on the questions we have included in our discussion paper.

For example, how do you define poverty? How should it be measured? Are there data gaps that need to be addressed to help improve our understanding of poverty in Canada? What targets should we pick to measure progress?

Reducing poverty requires concerted action. An economist whom I got to know in my earlier life, Amartya Sen, who is also a winner of the Nobel Prize in economic science, said that the success of a society is to be evaluated primarily by the capability that members of a society enjoy, and that poverty is not just a lack of money, but not having the capability to realize one's full potential as a human being.

This all supports our collective and ambitious vision of a prosperous, diverse, and truly inclusive country, a country where all can profit from real and fair chances to succeed.

In closing, I look forward to your contribution, the contribution of your committee in developing a strategy to reduce poverty.

I will be pleased to answer any questions and hear what you have to say.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much, Minister.

It's great to hear your opening remarks. I think they really reflect a lot of what this committee has already discussed in considering how to develop this study. It's a pleasure to chair this committee and to move forward to start this study.

Without further ado, we're going to get going with questions. I believe member of Parliament, Bob Zimmer, is up first.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Minister, for coming before us today.

I respect you as an economist and have some questions for you based on some of the costing, particularly of the carbon tax that was announced yesterday.

I just want to start by talking about Joe and Jane Taxpayer. They make about $75,000 a year, taking home about $40,000 a year. They have a mortgage of $2,000 per month, including municipal taxes; a car payment of about $500; an electricity bill of $400; a water bill of $100; a grocery bill of $800; and a fuel bill of $200. There is nothing left at that particular point.

As the minister charged with a poverty reduction strategy in Canada, has there been a discussion with the Prime Minister on a carbon tax? There is no money left to pay for it. I just want to know your response to that, Minister.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

As you know, the strategy of this government addresses three areas of development. I would call them inclusive development, economic development, and sustainable development.

What you're signalling to us this morning is that to make a better society, we need to work on all three aspects. Sustainability of development is certainly a key aspect, for which we have announced measures that will enhance the opportunities for middle-class Canadians, both to earn a secure level of living and to contribute to a society where our economy and our firms will benefit from the type of investment that the challenges, and the opportunities, of climate change pose to us.

As you know—

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I respect the ideas, and your compassion is evident as minister. I understand that you want to make a difference, and you want to reduce poverty in Canada.

The reality, though, is that the carbon tax per family, for heating fuel alone, is problematic. In Nova Scotia, there's an estimate that it will cost $612 per year. Joe and Jane taxpayer are already maxed out and have no money left to pay for any extras. That's another $600 on top, not to mention another $600 on fuel for their vehicles. You're talking about an extra $1,200 per household. I just want know, how are Joe and Jane taxpayer going to pay the bill?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

In light of the broad mandate we have as a government and a society, which you are part of, to improve the lives of our middle-class families, as well as those who'd like to be part of the middle class and are working hard to get there, we're moving very fast towards a more inclusive society through the middle-class income tax, which 9 million Canadians have been benefiting from since January.

The Canada child benefit for that particular family might mean an additional, non-taxable $200 per month. A family of that income with two children has big grocery costs. It will probably give them around $700 per month, non-taxable, because of the way we have restructured our transfers to families. If that person retires in a few years from now, she will benefit from an increased guaranteed income supplement of up to $1,000, if she lives alone and happens to be among the more vulnerable seniors. If she is 65 or 66, she will not fall into poverty, because we've moved the age of eligibility back to 65 years. These measures show how much we care about having a more inclusive society, one that's going to experience less poverty, while we are engaging on other fronts.

The economic front is clear. We need to develop an economy that is more sustainable, one that will be better able to take advantage of the opportunities created by climate change. We want to be the first in the world to build those jobs everywhere. We want to provide the middle-class jobs and revenue that we all want to see.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

With all due respect, Minister, we've seen the government table a budget with a $30-billion deficit. At some point, Joe and Jane taxpayer will have to pay the bill, and that bill will not stay stagnant. It's going up. The taxes are going to go up. We all know that they're going up. Payroll taxes are going up dramatically.

As an economist, I understand the platitudes, and what you're planning to do sounds great. Ultimately, though, Canadians have to pay the bill, and that's what I'm concerned about. That's what Conservatives are concerned about. Our compassion derives from the fact that at some point Joe and Jane have to pay the bill for all these plans. As an economist, I want to know whether we have had a deep conversation about the impacts that a carbon tax would have on Canadian taxpayers. You've talked about it generally, but the long-term effects are explained in platitudes. This question hasn't been answered substantially. That's what concerns me dramatically.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

These are not platitudes. These initiatives will make real changes in the lives of families. The CCB, the middle-class income tax cut, the increase in the GIS, and the moving of the age of eligibility back to 65 to prevent seniors from falling into poverty—all of these are positive changes. They are not platitudes; they are real changes in the lives of our families. We're thinking about the future of our economy, our society, and our planet. These are real policies designed to make a real change in the families of our country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you, Minister.

We are now going to Filomena Tassi.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Thank you, Minister, for your presence here today, and my thanks to the departmental officials.

Thank you for your excellent work thus far, for the many initiatives you've undertaken. I've heard from constituents in my own riding that what you've done has helped middle-class families. Some of this you've mentioned this morning. Thank you for all of your excellent work thus far.

I'm a proud Hamiltonian, and I'm proud of my city for a number of reasons. With respect to the study we have before us today, I want to note the passion, the commitment, and the dedication of a number of stakeholders in my community in alleviating poverty and helping the poor. I've met with a number of groups, most recently the Hamilton poverty reduction round table, and I'm impressed with their level of experience, commitment, and dedication. We have great resources in our own communities. How does the government plan to engage those stakeholders in the development of a poverty reduction strategy? There are great resources in our communities, and I don't want them to be missed.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

The greatest privilege I've had in the last few months has been to engage with these types of individuals and groups, of which we are so fortunate to have so many in Canada. The municipalities, communities, non-profit organizations, and the private sector are all there to support whatever energy and vision this government is able to signal when it comes to inclusive social development. This is the great privilege that I have had over the past few months. I know that all of us in this room also see this regularly, how ready and able our communities are to support the type of work we're going to be doing around this table in the next few weeks. We both have to do it and to have the right actions and the right attitudes when it comes to poverty reduction.

We also know that although our poverty reduction strategy at the federal level will be the first one ever, there are other poverty reduction strategies elsewhere in Canada at the provincial, territorial, and municipal levels. We want to be respectful of both the content and the outcome of those strategies so that we don't repeat anything. We draw from what already exists and we build, in a very consistent and respectful manner, on that existing work, and demonstrate, as you said, the great level of energy, expertise, and experience that we feel everywhere in Canada on that topic.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

When I was canvassing and knocking on doors, there were a number of people, particularly seniors, who were having a hard time staying in their homes because they weren't affordable. We know the end result is better if they stay in their homes. They're happier and healthier. There are so many other ramifications too.

You mentioned some things, but is there anything you want to add to what the government is doing to make housing more affordable for lower income Canadians?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Very good.

As you heard earlier, we are building, partly with your support, the national housing strategy. All MPs, all stakeholders, and all Canadians are invited to contribute to that. It's a very important strategy, as I signalled earlier. It's the first in four decades. It's there for a very simple reason. It's there to tell us in Ottawa how we can re-engage our federal government in assisting the housing needs of our families.

We've been relatively absent over the past years. That's not a partisan comment, because this dates back some years. Now we want to know how to get back again. To do that, we need to engage again with our stakeholders, communities, and other levels of governments.

In that area particularly, our country is ready. The signals I receive are clear: people have been waiting patiently, and now they want to engage with us to work in partnership for all kinds of Canadians, including lower income Canadians. The housing condition spectrum ranges from homelessness, which is the most dire circumstance Canadians can find themselves in, through to shelters and transitional housing, covering, among other things, the needs of victims of family violence. Also, there are the very difficult conditions in which many of our indigenous sisters and brothers find themselves in regard to social housing, which has been neglected for some years by our governments. There is also the need to address, as we did yesterday, some of the challenges we find in markets where house prices are both high and, perhaps, non-sustainable.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

I know I'm not giving you enough time to answer this question in the 10 or 15 seconds you're going to have, but what is the role of a national daycare plan in this? I've heard from a number of my constituents on this issue. Could you comment briefly on that?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

It's going really well. We had our first social services forum in 10 years in February in Edmonton, so that we could launch the re-engagement of the federal government in assisting early learning and child care. That's done in very close, though respectful, collaboration with provinces and territories. They have, as you know, a diversity of circumstances and ambitions in that particular regard.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much, Minister.

We'll go over to MP Sansoucy.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, I would like to begin by thanking you for speaking with us today and the manner in which you did so.

I am an eternal optimist; in that spirit, in the context of this study, I join this committee with great conviction. I acknowledge your sincerity and motivation, which will surely influence all those with whom you work to achieve results.

As you pointed out, we need to look at what has already been done. We know that, in 2000, if memory serves, the House of Commons unanimously adopted a resolution to eliminate child poverty. Yet, as we all know, 16 years later, children are still living in poverty.

So we must consider what has already been accomplished. In your presentation, you mentioned that, five years ago, a committee such as ours conducted a study on poverty which led to a series of recommendations. In its report, the committee mentioned that, five years later, any actions taken should be reviewed. It seems clear to me that our committee should begin with this oversight effort that was already begun.

You ended your presentation by inviting all Canadians to participate in the discussion. A few months ago, last February 26, I decided to participate myself by introducing at first reading, Bill C-245, an act concerning the development of a national poverty reduction strategy in Canada. That bill followed 10 years of discussions. I am the third MP to introduce an anti-poverty bill, following similar bills by my fellow MPs Martin and Crowder. We held consultations across the country. So anti-poverty groups have been considering this for the last 10 years, and this bill is the combination of all that thinking. I already have the support of the main organizations, and currently, 3,000 organizations from across the country are reviewing the bill.

I therefore hope Bill C-245 will be adopted at second reading on October 31. Indeed, I would be pleased if this committee could at least consider the validity of this approach towards reducing poverty.

I would like to know if I can count on your support and that of your government on October 31 when my bill will be studied at second reading.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Sansoucy. I would like to begin by thanking you for all your efforts. You spoke about sincerity and will. I believe those two words describe you quite well. Over the years, even before you entered politics, you worked very hard at several levels to make our society more inclusive, more respectful and more mindful of the needs of middle class Canadian families as well as those who would like to improve their lot.

You have already done excellent work and I encourage you to carry on. I know that you have already introduced a bill that aligns itself well with the discussion we plan to have over the coming weeks as well as the mandate I was personally given as Minister of Families, Children and Social Development. Once again, I am grateful to you for your parallel efforts, which you made even before our official process began.

I know these efforts will lead to substantial contributions with respect to the work with which I have been entrusted. I am looking forward to telling you, a little later on, about the ways in which we can work together so that our efforts are complimentary and mutually strengthening.

Today, I especially want to congratulate you and thank you once again for everything you do. I hope you will continue your efforts.