Human Resources Committee on Feb. 17th, 2017

[Nicole Read]

I do find that the media are fairly effective. There's a fairly good understanding. There's a very significant difference in metro Vancouver between the very, very urban area, which is acclimatized to dealing with people who are vulnerable, and the suburban area, which is not as acclimatized. There's a lot of stigma in this city right now, a lot of fear. It's understandable fear, because when you don't have outcomes around mental health and addiction....

The reality is that addiction does impact communities in a way that is different from the way cancer impacts communities. I can say that and still support vulnerable people, but there's a reality for our citizens that there are some scary elements to this when you locate supportive housing in a neighbourhood.

We need to be standing up for values. I shouldn't have to be screaming in the media. I shouldn't have to be leveraging the outside regional media or the national media to get attention to this issue, but I am. That's what will happen again today and for the next several days after the announcement at one o'clock. It shouldn't be that way. We need a better form of communication.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

You mentioned the provinces, the municipalities, and the federal level. You don't care about the jurisdiction issues they have with each other; you just need the money, especially when it comes to mental health.

In December the federal government was offering provinces money especially geared toward mental health and home care, but it was rejected because it was specific. What are your views on that?

[Nicole Read]

I understand that there are concerns about the jurisdictional nature of funding and how we make decisions, but the reality is that our Canadian values trump politics. They have to, because that's who we are as people. That is what we're known for internationally.

For me, my re-election does not matter when I have a mattress shop full of people sleeping next to each other on cots with no privacy and no dignity. For me, that has to be the paramount issue for why I'm here and what I use my voice for. Unfortunately, we do step into the jurisdictional issues when we make the decision.

We're told by the experts in the province, for example, that these people are so ill that they need to be in a congregant model of care, so we work together to try to deliver the congregant model of care. Then the public stands up and says they don't want the congregant model of care in their backyard, so the provincial government says there's no more congregant model of care.

How can that happen when we as Canadians have signed international human rights treaties to say that we will make sure our vulnerable people are housed and are not forcibly displaced, that we will take care of people with disabilities in this country? We have a very obvious example of how that is not happening right now. It shouldn't just be me as a Canadian who's concerned: this is the value system for all Canadians.

We had provincial experts telling us the things we need to do, so then why aren't we doing them? If we have experts tell us how we need to deal with cancer in this country, we don't have citizens stand up and say, “I'm sorry; I don't agree with that.” We have to take care of people who have mental health issues. The only way we can deal with stigma in this country around mental health and addiction is to say, as leaders, that we will support these people because as Canadians that's what we have to do.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Would you like to have seen the money come in that was offered in December for mental health and home care?

[Nicole Read]

Every city in metro Vancouver will say the same thing: when it comes to mental health treatment and care in this province, we do not have enough resources.

We have families who wait significant periods of time to connect to the services they need. The reality is that poverty and mental illness are connected. Sometimes people really struggle and fall out of their housing. We see them on the streets. That is the most critical situation that we have in this province.

There should be no dickering around jurisdictional issues when it comes to funding that is needed on the ground for people's health care.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Okay.

Regarding people with physical disabilities, are you able to help them, or do they need special care?

[Nicole Read]

We have a number of people who have been on our streets and in our shelter over time who have different levels of physical disabilities.

We had a woman who was a leader in our homeless camp. Her name is Linda, and she's a pretty phenomenal person. She has struggled her whole life. She had a broken arm that was untreated, basically hanging, for years. We have that kind of condition going on in our streets.

I was told by one of our staff members that we have another individual who is hunched over and sleeping in a chair at night at our shelter.

There are very significant physical disabilities that people meet with, especially when they've been on the streets for a long period of time. They have very significant health care needs.

When we deal with people with disabilities who are housed, we need to do everything we can to support them as well, so that they are able to access services. As a city, we have an accessibility committee. We work every day to make sure that people who are disabled in our community can access services equally with everybody else.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

You mentioned that the shelter we're going to visit later today is not up to standard. Could you please elaborate on that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Be very brief, please.

[Nicole Read]

Yes.

The temporary shelter was put together to move people out of the Cliff Avenue camp. It was meant to be a six-month endeavour. It is an open mattress shop with cots next to each other and one bathroom. It was never meant to be open for 18 months. It has been extended over and over again while the provincial government tries to figure out how to deliver supportive housing in this community. These people are the sickest of our street population. Under no circumstances should we be in a situation where we have people in that state for that period of time.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Sick, as in mentally?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you. I have to cut you off, sorry.

MP Long is next, please.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Chair, and welcome to everybody. These are wonderful presentations this morning.

One thing I think the government tends to do at the federal level is to try to alleviate situations. For example, I think we've done some good things with the Canada child benefit. I think that is something that will be transformational over time. There is an increase in the IAH, investment in affordable housing. Those things are great programs, though they're certainly not the solution.

I'm going to shift gears a little bit and start with Mr. Elliott-Buckley.

We're a committee that is travelling the country. We're going to advise the minister on coming up with a national poverty reduction strategy. As we know, there are lots of different pockets and bubbles, whether of shelters, housing, or mental health. We need, obviously, big support in all of them.

Strategically, what would you do over the long term to get upstream of poverty, as Mr. Harvey said, especially generational poverty, in Canada? I do have an answer in mind, but I want to hear what you say. What would you do?

[Stephen Elliott-Buckley]

I think the social determinants of health approach to health care, for instance, attempts to build a different way of addressing policy issues. As a policy wonk, I can list off by ranked order the things that I think are most important, but what we need to move out of is looking at things piecemeal.

Looking through a poverty reduction lens means taking a look at everything we do, from energy to our job creation programs to what we do with kids and seniors. It means looking at all the facets of our society, and considering how all those things contribute to the nature of poverty for different kinds of people in different circumstances in Canada. It means looking at all the different programs that we provide and examining how they can be tuned to address poverty issues at the outset as well as how they can be used to address people who are suffering.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

I'll just stay with you, if you don't mind. Could you give me your thoughts on how effective you think a national early learning strategy would be?

I think in Germany they start as early as two years old. Could you give me your thoughts on a national early learning strategy for three- and four-year-olds? It would obviously have to be tailored specifically to each province, but how important do you think early learning is to breaking the cycle of poverty?

[Stephen Elliott-Buckley]

I started reading about the British Columbia School Trustees Association's approach to early learning in the 1990s. They're even dealing with kids who aren't in the system yet. We're talking about preparing kids to be able to arrive in kindergarten. My wife works with the West Side Family Place in Vancouver. That has early childhood programs, and they liaise with elementary schools in their neighbourhood.

Those are critical for making sure that kindergarten isn't a burden for people. I think no matter how you implement it, in whatever community across the country, being able to have some kind of national approach to it, with a collaborative goal-setting structure between provinces and communities, would be wonderful.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

My riding, Saint John—Rothesay, is in southern New Brunswick. We unfortunately lead the country in LIM, in child poverty, and in many other factors.

Mayor Read, if as a committee we want to make recommendations, I know we need more money for mental health and affordable housing and all those things. From a committee standpoint, what do you want us to recommend to Minister Duclos? I understand the alignment of government and the issues and the politics. We see it in every province. What would you recommend that we say to Minister Duclos to break that long-term cycle of poverty?

[Nicole Read]

I have to call on personal experience here. In the last year, both of my kids have been diagnosed as gifted and with learning disabilities. I have had a new understanding of what our parents and their children face in our school system. It is underfunded.

The children are not being connected when they have learning disabilities, anxiety, or any challenge that is outside that middle child. The middle child works well within the learning environment that caters to the middle. We have good results with those children. However, in our system there are an awful lot of children with ADHD and anxiety disorders and learning disabilities. They are not being connected.

There is a very important legal case called Moore v. British Columbia. The Supreme Court of Canada basically said that we need to provide the ramp for these learning-disabled children to access their charter right to education. I do not believe from my personal experience and after having spoken to so many families in the province of British Columbia that we are providing the ramp.

The early learning opportunities are good, and we need child care in this province. I believe that we need a child care plan to give families safe spaces for their children, and maybe that will allow those children to also learn. There's a relationship between those things. We also need to make sure that the children who are not on that even trajectory through the school system are given the support they need to have equal access to opportunities.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you.

Mr. Harvey, in Saint John we have children show up for school who are five years old who can't tie their shoes. They have absolutely no social skills. There are serious mental health issues. Those children, those families, are behind from day one.

Can you give me your thoughts on early learning and how important it would be to break that generational cycle, please?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

You have about 30 seconds.

[John Harvey]

I'm going to answer that in a different way, I think.

We need to learn from the lessons of the past. In 1993, we stopped funding the national housing program. Twenty-five years on, we got it. In 1968, a very similar government committee was meeting on poverty and trying to figure out what we needed to do. Very similar questions were asked and similar strategies were employed.

We need early learning intervention, absolutely. We need day care, absolutely, but we need to ask ourselves what our civic contract is that we are going to adopt. As Nicole was saying, what do we believe to be true in terms of our responsibilities and the values that we have to enforce among our citizens, and not be subject to the sway and the times and the changing conditions, policies, and governments?

We have a homelessness crisis now that started in 1993. It was probably there before, but it certainly started in 1993. If we don't take the responsibility and say that our citizens have a right to be fed, to be housed, to be educated, to be cared for—all those things—and enshrine them in such a way that they can't be subject to shifting conditions and political tides, we will be having this conversation again.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you. I agree.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

We'll go over to MP Warawa, please.

I'll just note that I am going to extend for about 10 or 15 minutes because we were late. There will time for a few more quick questions.

Go ahead.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

We began today by visiting The Gateway of Hope in Langley.

There was a call for consideration of possibly more witnesses. Mr. Storie, you came to mind immediately. To get it through the cycle of approval within the township and the committee took a few days, so you have our apologies for a last-minute request to have you here, but I'm glad you are.

It provides a unique perspective, in that north of the Fraser River you have Maple Ridge and Pitt Meadows, while south of the Fraser River you have Langley city and Langley township. They have similar populations—Langley is just a little larger, about 10%—and they are facing very similar issues. They have similar climates, similar topography. Maple Ridge is a little more mountainous, but they're very close and facing similar issues.

In 2005 the community came together with all levels of government and leaders throughout the community who represented everything from fire rescue and police to school boards. All levels of government and all the leaders came together and said, “What is the number one issue we want to work together on?”

I believe you were there in 2005. From that we said, as leaders, that the number one issue was homelessness. It was a growing problem. I know you were involved with that whole process, and you continue to be involved with the homelessness issue and also taking care of seniors and the drug issues. From that 2005 meeting, we had a couple of people in the community who said they would take the leadership on that issue. We ended up a couple of years later with The Gateway of Hope, funded by all levels of government participating in it.

When we say things are underfunded, it means more taxes. Either taxes need to be increased to provide the extra funding or we change how those funds are allocated. That's the challenge of every level of government, whether it's municipal, provincial, or federal. You don't want to raise taxes unless it's absolutely necessary.

What was unique in Langley was that Langley provided the land, and in the different examples you gave, there was no request for additional funding. There were some grants provincially and federally to help pay for that, and the land came from local government.

You've been right on the front line and now you're the senior adviser to council. In the years that you've been involved with these issues, what has worked and what hasn't worked? I think we have very different results north of the Fraser and south of the Fraser. All levels of government have worked together. We haven't solved all the problems south of the Fraser, but what has worked and what has not?

[William R. Storie]

I think I should back up a bit and explain how he's talking about my being front line.

Starting in 1990, I was involved with the bylaw department, oversaw the bylaw department, started out my career with the bylaw department, and dealt with many homeless people on a daily basis. I'd instruct staff and I helped staff follow the rules that I set down. I always believed, whether we saw a homeless person for the first time or the thousandth time, that we'd treat them with dignity and respect and try to put them in touch with resources. In the township, I worked really well with Fraser Holland. He started with an outreach program from Stepping Stone, and we worked really closely together.

Over the years, I have thought that what works well is forming a relationship with these people. I think that there's an element of mistrust when you first approach them, and over time that kind of subsides. If you can get a rapport with them and get them looking at alternatives....

Mayor Read brought up a good point in saying that to house somebody and not have the other elements to go with it to support them is just doing a disservice to them. I've seen the failure of putting people into a residence who then get evicted the following month because all of a sudden they have a few friends they socialize with out in the encampments, and now they're housing there, and pretty soon they've got shopping carts full of stuff. I think the success is in forming the relationships.

I think Mayor Read also touched on something that's very difficult. I've been in politics or around politics for many years, more than I'd care to remember sometimes, but I find that Nimbyism really.... You have a plan, you put it in place, you're looking toward getting a structure built that's going to help these people, and all of a sudden the placards go up, the petitions go up, and they say “Not in my neighbourhood”. It has to be somewhere, right?

I think if it's done correctly, you have to take a stand and say, “This is where it's going to be built. This is for the betterment of the community; it's for betterment of mankind, womankind, childkind, whatever.” You have to make a point somewhere along the line, and politics does seem to get in the way provincially, federally, and municipally sometimes. There are people looking toward the next election, so things don't always go the way we want to see them go.

I hope that answered you.