Human Resources Committee on Feb. 21st, 2018

[Don Graham]

I think the reason this was in there was to ensure there would be some sort of consistency in the route that people would take to resolve their issue, rather than having everything inundate the Canadian Human Rights Commission, for instance. I believe that's why it was there. In the new legislation, as I understand it, we're looking at something that's going to create a single route to deal with violence and harassment, so it again will provide a common route for everyone to use.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Shifting gears quickly to you, Mr. White, you described some of the mandatory training that your members were required to go through to ensure a respectful workplace. I'm curious about who the audience is for that training and specifically whether there's a potential for training of bystanders who could intervene in a given circumstance but choose not to. In my mind, this is one of the great opportunities that we have to say, “Let's not turn a blind eye to this anymore, and if you see it, stop it in its tracks.”

Until that happens, I have no faith that the culture is going to change. Is there training offered by the RCMP to its members that says not just “don't be a bad person and don't be a perpetrator”, but “stop it when you see it”?

[A/Commr Stephen White]

It is built into some of our training. In the courses we give, those mandatories are for all employees of the organization: regular members, civilian members, and public service employees. That is emphasized in the training.

We also have supervisor development program training and management development program training in there to really emphasize with managers and supervisors as well that they need to engage if they see this taking place in the workplace.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

To build upon the line of questioning by my colleague Ms. Dabrusin about what really is the definition of “workplace”, which turned into a conversation about social media very quickly, one of the circumstances that didn't come out of the responses—and I did appreciate the responses, by the way—was a circumstance that I see in politics and in the RCMP as well.

Day one of law school in criminal law classes says that there's no such thing as an off-duty police officer. I'm thinking of the circumstance where the unwanted behaviour happens technically outside of the workplace, or off duty, as you've described, but the consequences of that unwanted behaviour are still felt from day to day in the workplace. Does the code of conduct for the RCMP capture that kind of circumstance?

[A/Commr Stephen White]

Yes, it does.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

That more or less wraps up my questions, but I would be remiss if I didn't pass on a recommendation that's not really your problem, but is from one of my friends who is a member of the forces and who said, “For God's sake, if you want to change the culture, would you please appoint a woman to head up the RCMP?”

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

MP Fortier.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to begin by thanking the witnesses for their presentations. I really liked hearing that prevention and training activities exist. I think that has to continue, as we all agree that the culture has to be changed.

Right now, what I am concerned the most about in the bill on the table is the matter of investigations. When someone submits a complaint, how is that complaint handled? What is the time frame once the complaint has been filed? How is the individual protected during the investigation?

Mr. Thibodeau, I was a bit surprised by your presentation. Perhaps you could clarify a few things. You said that every department or agency was expected to implement its own accountability processes and mechanisms. Were you saying that the various departments' processes are similar and that they are just differently integrated?

[Marc Thibodeau]

The processes are similar from one department to another. They all stem from the same legislation, but the responsibility belongs to the head of the organization.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you for the clarification.

Based on the legislation, do you have a suggestion for bolstering the investigation process, taking into account what is currently on the table. Do you think this bill puts us on the right path when it comes to your institution, among others?

[Marc Thibodeau]

When it comes to the objective, we are definitely on the right path. We are all interested in eliminating any form of workplace discrimination. I think that, operationally, the challenge will lie in the enforcement and application of the legislation. In fact, we have had to overcome an organizational challenge in terms of length. Earlier, you talked about the time needed to resolve issues. At one time, we often used investigators from outside the organization, and the process was much longer than it has been since an administrative investigation unit was created within the security directorate.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

How is the individual who submitted a complaint protected during an investigation? In the past, it could take months or years for the complaint to even get handled. Do you have a suggestion for strengthening the current legislation and protecting the individual?

[Marc Thibodeau]

Currently, as soon as a complaint is filed or the incident is reported, we separate the parties directly involved in the case to ensure that no one will feel that we are favouring one party over the other.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Mr. White, Mr. Breton, do you have any suggestions that would help strengthen the bill we are currently studying?

[A/Commr Stephen White]

In terms of...?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I am talking about suggestions regarding the investigation process.

[A/Commr Stephen White]

I think you need to have investigations and a good gateway for investigations to be submitted. You need to have good, strong, trained investigators. I agree that there need to be protections for complainants in there. I also think there needs to be some degree of confidentiality around that as well. Also, we have to have the confidence that the investigations are done with transparency, a degree of independence, and good decision-making at the end.

For us, for harassment in the workplace, for example, if there is a finding of harassment, we can cross that over into our code of conduct, and there can be code of conduct measures applied as a result of that harassing behaviour.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Do any measures apply not only to the complainant, but also to the witnesses tied to the case?

Do you think there should be measures to support witnesses in investigations?

[A/Commr Stephen White]

I would put forward, especially with regard to cases of sexual misconduct/sexual harassment, that for complainants and witnesses it can be a very demanding thing for them to go through. Sometimes, witnesses and complainants may have to be interviewed several times, so I would recommend that investigators have some training on how to treat both victims and witnesses of certain types of behaviour, and there I would definitely emphasize sexual harassment and sexual misconduct in the workplace, because it can have a very big impact on victims and witnesses.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you. Now we'll go to MP Falk.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all of our witnesses who have come to committee to provide us with some insight, and to influence the shaping of this bill.

Mr. Graham, I'd like to start with you. I want to get back to the statistics that MP Blaney was referencing in some of his comments. Your quote here was that “nearly one-quarter, or 22%, of employees indicated” that they were victims of harassment. What was the question that they would have answered yes to, or what was the description of harassment?

[Don Graham]

I'm sorry. I don't have that with me. We can provide it to you.

I'm pretty sure the question was, “Have you been a victim of harassment in the workplace in the last two years?”

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

You think it was that straightforward?

[Don Graham]

I think it was that straightforward.