Human Resources Committee on May 25th, 2020

[Prof. Kevin Milligan]

As we get into the return to work, the greatest challenge is in industries where there simply is going to be a change in reality, whether it is tourism, professional sports or other related industries. I think we need to develop a longer-run strategy to help folks in those industries because unleashing the economy in June is not going to bring tourists back; it's not going to bring professional sports back in a quick way.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you very much, Professor Milligan. That was great.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Dong.

Thank you, Mr. Milligan.

We'll now give Ms. Chabot the floor for six minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good evening to all the witnesses.

Thank you for joining us, for being available and for your presentations. I'll start by asking Mr. Kassam a question.

You spoke about the CERB and the CESB, which are adverse incentives for workers. You said that a $2,000 taxable benefit should have been provided instead. My question is as follows. In your analysis, you didn't mention the minimum wage. Do you believe that a higher minimum wage could be a potential solution?

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Ms. Wagantall, on a point of order, please.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

It's so difficult to hear because both the French and the English are at the same volume. Are they on the right language channel?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Ms. Chabot, are you on the French channel?

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Yes, I'm currently on the French channel, Mr. Chair.

I asked a question about the minimum wage. We know that the minimum wage, at 40 hours a week, amounts to barely over $2,000.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Please wait a moment, Ms. Chabot.

Ms. Wagantall, does that seem to be better?

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

No. I'm wondering if I just need to mute the original audio. This is something new to me, which I don't seem to be able to do.

It's fine. Go ahead.

[Paul Manly, Green, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

I'm on English as well, and I'm getting the same thing. I'm getting the French and the interpretation.

[Shamez Kassam]

I'm sorry. I don't know if that question was for me, but I had great trouble understanding it. I had the same issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Kassam.

To the IT folks or to the interpretation folks, is there anything we can do to resolve this?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Marie-France Lafleur]

Mr. Chair, I've been told that Ms. Chabot can go back to "floor" and then back to "French".

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Ms. Chabot, I'll restart your time.

Go ahead.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for you, Mr. Kassam. You said that the CERB and CESB were adverse incentives and that a $2,000 taxable benefit should have been provided instead.

Based on your analysis, should the federal minimum wage rate be higher in order to provide better benefits?

[Shamez Kassam]

Thank you for the question. It came across much better, so thank you to the IT folks as well.

The question of minimum wage, of course, has many sides to it. I think in this particular case it may have made some difference. The higher minimum wage, I think at the margin, would have made some difference. How much, I do not know. I'm not an expert on that subject. Through our community, in speaking with several accountants and other business people, I did hear instances where they had trouble finding workers for the summer because of this reason, so that's what my comments were focusing on.

I hope that helps somewhat.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you.

We've heard this comment about employment incentives. The issue with the emergency benefits is that, when an employee earns over $1,000, they lose the CERB, which is very significant. This $2,000 benefit is barely equivalent to the provincial minimum wage. This raises questions about the wage conditions and the minimum wage provided to employees.

Regarding financial literacy, we agree, but it's really a provincial responsibility. In Quebec, financial literacy is already taught at the secondary school level and a little bit at the primary school level. You're right about this issue. However, it falls under provincial jurisdiction, and we hope that it will continue to do so.

Mr. Milligan, you spoke about the transition from the CERB, which will end, to the employment insurance program. I want to reiterate that, if we had depended on the employment insurance program, many workers who lost their jobs wouldn't have been entitled to anything. The employment insurance program isn't inclusive enough to cover all the workers who ended up in this situation.

When should we transition from one program to the other? How will we determine that the CERB is coming to an end and that the time is right to transition to the regular employment insurance program?

[Prof. Kevin Milligan]

Thank you for your question.

I will, if you'll allow, answer in English.

As we move forward into the phase of the crisis where we are looking at returning to work, my view is that for those who have lost work, especially those who are self-employed, the part-time worker who may not have eligibility for the normal EI, it is important that those workers and all workers have access to the regular services of Service Canada through EI. That is for job search, retraining and for other forms of assistance that can be had through the regular EI.

In particular, I would note that on the question that the honourable member had about the $1,000 limit, this is precisely the kind of thing, I think, that gets very complicated when we try to extend CERB for a long time period. These kinds of rules, like the $1,000 limit for earned income, become very complicated as we go forward.

To my mind, it's better to take the existing set of rules that we have for employment insurance and to transition people into that system so they'll have access to the services and also a set of rules that are well laid out and an administration that is set up to handle that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you very much, Professor Milligan.

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Mr. Chair, can I raise a point of order?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Yes.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I normally listen to the floor so I don't have interpretation, but because of what's been going on, I chose to try to listen to the interpretation in both directions. There's something definitely wrong with the interpretation from French into English. When I'm listening to the English, the sound of the person speaking English is almost not there and you hear the French interpreter. When I'm listening to Madam Chabot, I hear Madam Chabot speaking French as loud as the interpreter is speaking English. They haven't lowered the volume on the French speaker, so people are not able to hear the translation of French into English the way they can hear English into French.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Housefather.

During that exchange, I did receive a note from the clerk. The IT folks are going to be on the phone with Madam Chabot very shortly to see if they can correct the problem.

Thank you for raising it. We're doing our best. If we need to suspend to make sure everyone is treated fairly, we will.

Next we have Ms. Kwan for six minutes, please.