Evidence of meeting #14 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was companies.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mohammad Keyhani  Associate Professor, Entrepreneurship and Strategy, University of Calgary, As an Individual
Mathew Wilson  Senior Vice-President, Policy and Government Relations, Canadian Manufacturers & Exporters
Leah Nord  Senior Director, Workforce Strategies and Inclusive Growth, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Robert Kucheran  Chairman, Executive Board, Canada's Building Trades Unions

6:05 p.m.

Associate Professor, Entrepreneurship and Strategy, University of Calgary, As an Individual

Dr. Mohammad Keyhani

As I was saying, most observers I've seen point to a lack of competition in the telecom sector as a driver of this situation in Canada. I believe that the technology and the capabilities are there; the companies that can do it are there but need to be attracted to invest in Canada to open up competition as much as possible.

6:05 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Isn't it also a question of profitability? It's less of an issue in urban areas than in rural ones. Canada is a big country, we understand that. Shouldn't it be seen as an investment, rather than an expense? Is it because it isn't profitable enough for these companies?

6:05 p.m.

Associate Professor, Entrepreneurship and Strategy, University of Calgary, As an Individual

Dr. Mohammad Keyhani

Definitely. This—

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Give a short answer, please, Professor Keyhani.

6:05 p.m.

Associate Professor, Entrepreneurship and Strategy, University of Calgary, As an Individual

Dr. Mohammad Keyhani

I don't think that is the only problem, although in remote areas that might be a problem. I think that by seeing it as a crucial infrastructure investment, the government could support rural areas. I think the problem is bigger than that. Even in urban centres, the prices are far too high compared to other countries.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you.

We'll go to Ms. Kwan now.

You have two and a half minutes, please.

6:05 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to turn to Mr. Keyhani as well.

Thank you so much for raising the issue of the situation for international students. You're absolutely correct in the sense that they pay to study here and that they pay a much higher tuition. Of course, Canada looks to them, as well, for our immigration contributions. Now that they're in a tremendous time of need, it feels a bit like we're abandoning them because they don't qualify for the Canadian emergency response benefit.

To that end, you've called for the government to make this change. Would you say that if they are international students who are here in Canada, they should also then be qualified for the CERB—like other Canadians and like other temporary foreign workers, for that matter—if they qualify for the program?

6:10 p.m.

Associate Professor, Entrepreneurship and Strategy, University of Calgary, As an Individual

Dr. Mohammad Keyhani

I believe there are students who lost income in a significant manner, which does make them eligible through that particular requirement of the CERB.

From what I've seen around me, people who have applied have actually gotten the CERB. I don't know if it will turn out later that they were ineligible, but I think they should be eligible for the CERB as well.

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

Thank you.

I just want to turn quickly back to Mr. Wilson. We were talking about the commercial rent subsidy issue. Many people do not qualify. From your sector, or even for businesses, would you say that one key change the government needs to make is, in fact, to allow small businesses to apply for the rent subsidy and for it to not be tied to the mortgage?

6:10 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Policy and Government Relations, Canadian Manufacturers & Exporters

Mathew Wilson

I'm not sure about the tie to the mortgage, but certainly our recommendations to government so far—and what we'll be saying more publicly—is that it should be on the renter, not the leaseholder, to do the application. It's for the same reason as the wage subsidy program, where the employer gets it, not the employee directly. It's a lot easier to manage the system that way. In other words, we believe that it should be changed around. It would make it a lot easier for companies. There's very little incentive for landlords to offer it and apply.

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

Yes. With regard to the issue that, somehow, if people get that rent subsidy, they won't apply it to the rent itself, I mean, the government can get around that. It can have them actually show their lease agreements, show each month. There are ways in which I'm sure the business sector can help the government to verify that, in fact, that money is indeed for the commercial rent.

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you, Ms. Kwan.

You have time for a very short answer, if you wish, Mr. Wilson.

6:10 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Policy and Government Relations, Canadian Manufacturers & Exporters

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

That's excellent. Thank you.

To both witnesses, Mr. Wilson and Professor Keyhani, thank you so much. You can tell how much MPs were interested in your remarks by the extension of the time.

To my colleagues, thank you very much for the courtesy that you showed to your colleagues in doing so.

Again, thank you. Your testimony will be very helpful to us as we move along with this examination.

We're going to now suspend for three minutes to queue up the next panel. We are suspended.

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

We are back in session. I would like to thank our witnesses for joining us today.

We have with us from Canada's Building Trades Unions, Robert Kucheran, chairman, executive board; and from the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, Leah Nord, senior director, workforce strategies and inclusive growth. We're going to start with Ms. Nord.

Please, go ahead for 10 minutes.

6:20 p.m.

Leah Nord Senior Director, Workforce Strategies and Inclusive Growth, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Thank you, Mr. Chair, vice-chairs and committee members. It's a pleasure to be here before you this evening.

My name is Leah Nord, and I am the senior director of workforce strategies and inclusive growth at the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, working in the areas of skills, the future of work, immigration, employment standards and practices, diversity and inclusion. My comments today will focus on these areas within my portfolio, with reference to not only the crisis period but also the reopening, recovery and return to the new normal that is happening with different timing and stages across the country.

The Canadian Chamber of Commerce is the voice of Canadian business. We represent 200,000 businesses across the country, across sectors and across sizes. Our network consists of 450 chambers of commerce and boards of trade, alongside over 400 corporate members and an equal number of association members. We believe that one of the most impressive aspects of the response to the crisis, and what will hopefully be one of its most significant legacies, is the team Canada approach that has been taken.

The centrepiece of the Chamber of Commerce's response during this crisis has been the Canadian Business Resilience Network. It is supported by government in partnership with our network and members, as well as our partner business associations. This inclusive and bilingual campaign, including a microsite, has proven to been a successful, centralized and authoritative source of information, best practices, tool kits and thought exchange that have allowed and will continue to allow businesses to prepare, persevere and eventually prosper.

Looking more specifically to the labour force, to state the obvious, the crisis has had a detrimental effect on Canada's workforce. Through the April 2020 Canadian Chamber of Commerce and Statistics Canada Canadian survey on business conditions, we know that Canadian businesses have undertaken many efforts to support their employees through the crisis and to keep them connected to the labour force.

Innovations include remote work, e-commerce and work sharing. Nonetheless, we also learned through the survey that 40% of businesses had laid off staff and 38% of them had reduced staff hours or shifts. Stats Canada will be back in the field next week with the second round of the survey. We look forward to gaining further insights and seeing if and how attitudes and practices have shifted as the crisis has continued.

Further, a March and April 2020 labour force data survey indicates that since the start of the crisis three million Canadians have lost their jobs—90% of them temporarily—and more than eight million have applied for the Canada emergency response benefit and Canada emergency student benefit.

Not surprisingly, in the initial phase of the crisis the most significant job losses were in accommodation and food service industries. Initially, populations most affected in the first phase included youth, women and those working in less secure lower-quality jobs. Goods-producing sectors were most affected in April, particularly manufacturing and construction.

Sectors including tourism, wholesale and retail trade, education and recreation have also experienced employment declines of up to 35%. The crisis has also compounded preceding downturns in sectors such as oil and gas and forestry, and pivots in sectors such as manufacturing and mining. It has also highlighted the needs in transport and warehousing, health human resources and food retail, underscoring the importance of the country's essential workers.

As I turn my comments to the reopening and recovery periods, I will underscore that many businesses across the country, across sectors and across sizes are still very much in crisis mode. For example, Monday is June 1 and even in light of recent announcements such as the one on Canada emergency commercial rent assistance for small businesses, many members are wondering if and how they are going to make the rent this coming month.

Specific to the reopening period, the Canadian Chamber of Commerce has developed a series of recommendations, including on the importance of leaning on international best practices and ensuring interprovincial alignment. We also believe that although emergency temporary financial support programs have been needed, and in fact have been crucial to help some companies and individuals stay afloat through the pandemic, there is also a longer-term need to ensure sustainable public finances.

We also appreciate that there continue to be more questions than answers right now. The crisis has shown us that the best public policy is made when it widely draws upon the advice of civil society, including businesses both large and small across sectors. The conversations need to start now in a structured manner to ensure that governments at all levels are receiving the best possible advice to minimize unintended consequences.

An excellent example of this is the creation and composition of the federal government's COVID-19 supply council, which includes representatives from business, labour, many sectors and non-profits, and the voices of academics, women and aboriginal business.

As we look further to recovery and a return to the new normal we need to get Canadians back to work. Canada's workforce will simply not be the same as we move into recovery. In the span of a few short months, we went from one of the tightest job markets in recent history to unprecedented job losses. Unemployment may not return to pre-crisis levels at any point soon. Available jobs and skills required will shift. Employers may increasingly look to automation to maintain operations during future crises and reduce risk.

Canadians will need reskilling, upskilling and skills training programs to get them back to work. Education and training will also change, including more online and hybrid learning, an importance on durable skills, and a focus on both work-integrated learning and lifelong learning. Ensuring that all Canadians have opportunities to participate in the recovery will be essential for inclusive growth and widespread job creation.

With this the Canadian Chamber of Commerce has three main recommendations.

First is to ensure inclusive growth in the recovery period. In the first instance, this means inclusive voices need to be represented at public policy and discussion forums. I gave the example of the federal government's COVID-19 supply council. This must be replicated at all tables and levels of government, as well as in boardrooms and leadership meetings, at labour and union tables, in occupational health and safety committees, and in business operations and return-to-work discussions.

Second, Canada needs a comprehensive review of the employment insurance program. In prefacing this recommendation, I would like to say two things: First, this is a long-standing recommendation of the Canadian chamber, and we have any number of policy resolutions over the years on this issue; and second, with this recommendation we are not diminishing the incredible work of the federal public service in response to the crisis in developing and implementing programs such as the Canada emergency wage benefit, the Canada emergency relief benefit and the Canada emergency student benefit. Quite the opposite, they all deserve widespread praise.

However, we believe it is telling that these programs were necessarily situated outside the EI program framework. Moving forward, we need to identify the reform needed to build a system that can respond to current and future workforce needs to ensure Canadians remain connected to the labour force, and that includes strong upskilling and reskilling training components.

Our third recommendation to get Canadians back to work is to use local labour market information and real-time data to develop labour market solutions created by business for business, led by sectors for sectors and tailored by communities for communities. In doing so we advocate the use of chambers of commerce and boards of trade as local hubs for employer collaboratives that can provide facilitated time and space for businesses to share, collaborate and plan.

These are unprecedented times and there is no playbook to turn to. Policy and programming recommendations for recovery at this point are conjecture at best. There needs to be a thoughtful, inclusive and measured approach to the response. This is exactly what the Canadian chamber's proposal, called the “Talent Pipeline Management: A Canadian Economic Resiliency Program”is designed to do.

Just briefly, because I am aware of the time, this is a program that prioritizes the alignment among education, training, support and workforce systems. It is a program that has been implemented by our colleagues in the U.S. across 33 states. It has taken place at the state level, as well as the regional level; large cities and smaller rural towns have been involved. It has even been used by individual companies in their internal business practices. It has involved the creation of employer collaboratives in a wide range of sectors, including hospitals, health care, construction, manufacturing, utilities, education, cybersecurity, fintech and IT. It has also been used to form collaboratives organized along supply chains, and it has proven to be self-sustaining after initial seed funding.

During the crisis, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce Foundation has been infusing its academy curriculum with a recovery focus and using its national learning network to share challenges, solutions and best practices. There has been success in retaining workers in sectors, keeping them tied to their sectors, as well as identifying workers' crosswalks, upskilling, reskilling and career pathways.

The overarching benefit of this is that it allows for managing and mitigating both major expansions and contractions in the economy and the workforce, it builds resiliency and it future-proofs workforce planning.

With that, I'll thank the committee members for the opportunity to appear today and look forward to answering any questions.

Thank you.

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you, Ms. Nord.

Mr. Kucheran, you have the floor for your opening statement. You have 10 minutes, sir. Go ahead.

6:30 p.m.

Robert Kucheran Chairman, Executive Board, Canada's Building Trades Unions

Good evening, Chair and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to address this committee and the government's response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

My name is Robert Kucheran. I'm the chairperson of Canada's Building Trades Unions, an organization representing 14 international unions that represent over half a million highly skilled and highly trained workers in the construction, maintenance and fabrication industries in Canada.

Our more than 500,000 men and women are employed in constructing everything from a garden shed through to the largest megaprojects in Canada. We have members employed at virtually every refinery, pulp and paper mill, potash facility, generating station and nuclear plant, and in commercial and institutional construction that includes roads, bridges, overpasses, hospitals and all forms of civic infrastructure. The construction and maintenance sector annually represents approximately 14% of Canada’s GDP.

Our work is done not just on the job site but also in a number of facilities and fabrication shops that are incorporated into the structures we work on and, once structures are built, we are often later employed in their operation, renovation, maintenance and repurposing.

We are the single largest trainer of apprentices in Canada. Each year, we invest over $300 million of our own funds across our 175 training centres to ensure our members are the safest, most skilled and highly qualified in the industry. We work closely with our employer partners to try to ensure that Canada has a future supply of highly skilled and well-trained tradespeople through our training centres, which can be found in every province and region in Canada with the exception of Quebec, which has its own unique system, as we all know. This system allows us and our contractor partners to meet the demands for skilled trade workers for today and tomorrow.

Today, Canada is facing unprecedented health, social and economic challenges. With construction being deemed essential in most provinces, CBTU members continue to build the critical infrastructure necessary to keep Canadians safe and healthy during this pandemic, but like it was for many Canadians, some of our members’ jobs were impacted by the crisis, and they continue to be as we move forward.

I want to thank the government for their responsiveness to this pandemic, not only through the various ministries regularly updating and staying in contact with us, but through their work on programs, including CERB and CEWS. The government’s swift response, as well as their commitment to continue to modify and adjust these benefits as needed, has helped to ensure our members and Canadians do not fall through the cracks.

While there are still improvements that can be made to these programs, such as including allowing unions to utilize their existing supplemental unemployment benefit, or SUB funds, to top up members' wages when they're collecting the CERB, we appreciate what has been done to date.

When the pandemic reared its head, the organized construction industry was swift to respond with a number of safety protocols on job sites, including increased hand-washing stations, the sanitation of sites, trailers and common touch areas, physical distancing, and proper PPE being made available and its use being enforced.

Through continued open communication with our employer partners, health and safety representatives and members, we have been able to quickly address any issues that have arisen. It is because of this that the numbers of cases on our job sites are minimal. We are proud of the responses of our industry, because our members' health and safety have always been our utmost priority. The unionized construction sector could be used as a model for other sectors.

That said, our sector has always been a leader, given the nature of our work, in ensuring our members have a safe work environment and proper protocols in place, have training to identify potential dangers on their jobs and, of course, have the proper PPE. The need for a greater availability of PPE to prevent the further spread of COVID-19 remains important. We urge the government to continue to do what it can to obtain sources of supply to ensure the construction sector can continue to operate in a safe manner.

Looking forward, as Canada comes out of the pandemic and the federal government considers an economic recovery plan, I want to remind the committee that the construction sector plays an integral role in advancing the economy and, historically, we have seen this trend help us emerge from recessions and even the Great Depression itself.

As the government stimulates the economy through infrastructure, we must recognize and be cognizant of the money spent and where and how it will be deployed in communities across Canada. Specifically, we have the opportunity to utilize our highly skilled, trained and mobile workforce to help build a stronger and more resilient Canada as we recover from this COVID-19 crisis.

We have submitted to the government a list of large, shovel-ready and shovel-worthy projects that could put people to work and create training opportunities for underemployed, unemployed and under-represented Canadians. The federal government has an opportunity to take a leadership role in investing and securing Canada's critical infrastructure, both in the short term to get people back to work and bolster the economy, and in the long term as an economic catalyst to build the Canada we all want for future generations.

The federal government could show leadership by incorporating community benefit agreements, CBAs, not only through the thought process but more importantly through acting upon its federally funded projects. CBAs support the hiring and training of local workers and under-represented groups, including women and indigenous people. They often contain provisions that enable apprenticeships, guarantee prevailing wages and establish grounds for workplace development initiatives to provide funding and economic support for impacted communities, utilize local suppliers and manufacturers, and set forth training for minority, women and local hiring.

In the provinces where CBA has been enacted, we see, for example, that the number of women entering apprenticeships and completing their apprenticeship certification is significantly increased. For example, in Newfoundland, where a number of CBAs were utilized on major construction projects, women now count for 14% of the construction workforce. This is compared with roughly 2% to 4% across the rest of the country.

When considering post-pandemic recovery, investing in local communities will lift all Canadians up. We can do that through training and skills development by providing support and assistance to organizations as well as on projects to help train Canada's future workforce through the apprenticeship system.

Over the next 10 years, at least 21% of all the current workforce will retire. The ability to fill this gap and meet the demand depends on the availability of workers with the portable experience, skills and qualifications in their trades. The infrastructure for providing training exists in Canada through many training centres provided by our affiliates, but without ongoing support from the government and our employers, our industry suffers.

Historically, the larger the construction project, the more opportunity for apprentices to learn their crafts and obtain the hours to become journey people. A focus on apprenticeships and requiring apprenticeships on site on any infrastructure investment is key to building Canada's future workforce.

In conclusion, on behalf of the CBTU, our 14 affiliates and over half a million members, I want to thank the government for their quick response during these unprecedented times. As the government looks past the pandemic and looks towards economic recovery, we ask the government to help ensure that Canadian tradespeople are able to work in a safe environment according to the guidelines from applicable governments and health authorities, which will require the continued sourcing of PPE and enforcement of safety procedures and protocols.

The government must ensure that any economic recovery plan includes investing in all Canadians. This could be achieved through investing in major infrastructure projects that support Canadian tradespeople in the communities they live in by instituting community benefit agreements. This in turn will help lift all Canadians up and continue to build a better and stronger Canada.

I want to thank you, Chair and committee members, for allowing me to appear before this committee. I look forward to any questions you might have for me.

Thank you.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you, Mr. Kucheran.

We're going to begin with questions now starting with Mr. Albas, please, for six minutes.

May 28th, 2020 / 6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank both our witnesses for being here today and for sharing some of their expertise.

Mr. Kucheran, I think I'm going to start with you.

We just had the Canadian Manufacturers & Exporters come in. One of the things that their testimony revealed is that traditional markets like exports, particularly energy exports, can really help us to grow our economy. Obviously the building trades are going to be a big part of that.

How big of a role will energy projects, specifically export capacity development, play in our eventual economic recovery from the COVID crisis, in your opinion?

6:40 p.m.

Chairman, Executive Board, Canada's Building Trades Unions

Robert Kucheran

Of course, we've always supported the oil industry and the development of the oil industry in Canada, because it is a significant contributor to Canada's GDP in all sectors.

As you know, our members go to work from right across Canada into the Wood Buffalo area and bring back to their own communities money that's spent locally. We believe that recovery is very important. We believe that the pipelines that are going to be built are critical. We look forward to the ability to get that crude oil out of Alberta and to people who are willing to pay a fair market price for it.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Thank you for answering that.

What is your opinion on the potential cancellation of the Keystone XL pipeline and the impacts that would have on the Canadian energy sector and your sector?

6:40 p.m.

Chairman, Executive Board, Canada's Building Trades Unions

Robert Kucheran

They're very important. Of course, I heard former vice-president Biden make those comments last week. That concerns us, as it would anybody in the construction industry.

We're monitoring that, and we're doing what we can in Canada—but also, more importantly, stateside—to get people around those issues to listen to us.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Thank you, sir. I appreciate your breath of fresh air.

I would like to now move, Mr. Chair, to Ms. Nord from the Canadian Chamber of Commerce.

Ms. Nord, we've seen such a slow uptake of the wage subsidy, slower than what anyone, particularly the government, expected or planned for.

As you represent a great many businesses, why do you think that is?

6:40 p.m.

Senior Director, Workforce Strategies and Inclusive Growth, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Leah Nord

I think that we're seeing a number of factors at play. The first would be timing. The program only started on May 1, about six weeks after the crisis, so a number of job actions had already been taken.

There is the issue around eligibility. I'll give credit where credit is due: There's movement being made. Even today, I understand, my provincial and territorial colleagues were on a call with representatives from the Department of Finance with some recommendations, again, around the eligibility, about the drop in revenue.

There are issues around companies and non-profits that use third party payment providers not being eligible, and there are other issues with the revenue drop with regard to mergers and acquisitions through this period of time if you haven't been in business for a year. I know that we at the Canadian Chamber of Commerce are advocating for furloughed employees to allow greater flexibility with the wage subsidy in order to bring it back.

I think it's important as well to....

We've started reopening, and it's happening at different stages and paces across the country. As we sit here in Ontario and watch other jurisdictions that are not even in our realm, it's a reminder that many businesses were not considered essential services. They were not open, or the extent to which they could be open will not allow them to take up this program until the reopening and recovery have really taken hold.