Human Resources Committee on June 22nd, 2020

[Debbie Douglas]

We certainly hope so. They are employers and they're responsible for their employees' safety. Millions were sent their way in support, certainly in our food sector, so I would expect employers who are bringing in workers—even those who didn't have access to government funds—to have the proper accommodations in terms of isolation and also in terms of their ongoing living conditions. I would expect them to pay attention to ensuring safety in the workplace, including things like social distancing, access to sanitizers, access to masks, folks being able to not work overtime and folks having access to medical support when required. I think all of those things should be the responsibility of the employer.

Once again, if we're not being consistent with inspections and if we're not showing up in the workplace without first announcing that inspectors are going to show up, these issues will continue to be exacerbated. It is the migrant workers who are getting the short stick. We've all watched what's happened in Alberta in the meat packing plant. We are very concerned about what's happening on our farms here in southern and southwestern Ontario.

Yes, it's the employer's responsibility, but it's also the government's responsibility to ensure that the inspections that are necessary are consistent and are happening, and that employers who are not following the rules are being penalized.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Are you aware of any specific barriers in meeting any of those requirements?

[Debbie Douglas]

What we've been hearing from migrant workers is that they are living in congregated spaces where there are a number of folks in one room. Even those who came in to quarantine get put back into congregate. As I said, we are not surprised at the infections, but we're angry about it and we're concerned about it. We're concerned about, as one of the members said, the deaths of migrant workers that have happened.

Yes, I believe that if employers are going to be given permission to bring in workers from overseas, they must demonstrate that they have the ability to keep them safe, and government is responsible for ensuring that this is happening.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Thank you.

Additionally, could either of you please comment on practical steps the provincial or federal governments could take to better ensure the effective implementation of these types of requirements?

[Debbie Douglas]

My colleague, would you like to speak? No.

It's as I've said. Provincial governments are responsible for enforcing labour laws. Again, it's about ensuring that the workplaces are following guidelines put in place for COVID, but even before COVID, we had those concerns of unsafe workplaces and ensuring that employees had their rights protected and were not being penalized when they tried to stand up for themselves to assert their rights.

For me, there isn't a difference between a notice of provincial or federal jurisdiction. The issue is that employees need to be kept safe. Employers have a responsibility to ensure that safety, and the governments have a responsibility to assure Canadians and Ontarians, in my case, that the workers we're bringing in are being kept safe within the workplace and in the living space for those who are living with their employer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Falk and Ms. Douglas.

Finally, we're going to Mr. Turnbull, please, for five minutes.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Hi, Ms. Douglas. It's great to have you here and good to see you again.

Mr. Thibodeau, it's great to hear your testimony as well.

Obviously I think we're all concerned about the outbreaks in southwestern Ontario on some farms, mostly in Essex County, I believe. I know our government's working to address these issues.

Ms. Douglas, you said a moment ago, in response to Ms. Falk's question, that we need to make sure inspections are consistent and that they're happening. Do you think Service Canada, the Public Health Agency of Canada and local health units working together to ensure those inspections happen would address and improve the non-compliance we might be seeing?

[Debbie Douglas]

I'm not sure of the capacity of local health organizations in the middle of a pandemic when they're paying attention to the larger issue of safety and they're putting out policies. I think, however, that the provinces must beef up their inspections. We were a bit alarmed when we found out that inspectors in Ontario were told they can call in to do their inspections at the height of COVID at the same time that we were having conversations about opening the borders and allowing migrant workers to come in, and the federal government had announced a significant amount of money for employers. The fact that we didn't make those links to ensure that the funds were being spent on what they should be spent on, to ensure that public health guidelines about social distancing were put in place, to ensure that once folks came out of self-isolation they had living spaces that did not then expose them to the virus, and all the things I said to the other questioner—

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I think what I'm hearing essentially is that we need physical inspection.

[Debbie Douglas]

Oh, absolutely, and consistently and without warning at times.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Thibodeau, did you want to comment on that?

[Fernand Thibodeau]

I found it difficult that seasonal workers were told that COVID-19 was very dangerous. People weren't really informed. They came back to work feeling very afraid and worried. People were very worried about returning to the plants, because 300 people work in the plants, crammed together.

At first, we heard that walls would be put up. However, there were no walls. No walls were put up in the plants.

I'm wondering a great deal about worker protection. People returned to work feeling worried. They were afraid. That's what happened.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Mr. Thibodeau, I'm short on time and I want to get in another question.

I understand there are some pretty severe penalties in enforcement. I think employers can be fined $1 million and be banned from participating and hiring temporary foreign workers in the future. It seems particularly punitive, and to me it would serve as a good deterrent. Would you agree that those fines and penalties are enough to ensure that employers are following the rules?

[Fernand Thibodeau]

I think so. As I said, people are returning to work feeling very worried and afraid. Many of these people have called to tell me that they weren't really protected and that they had only a visor and a small mask. Some of them have passed out while breathing with this protection, and ambulances have come to get them. Is that human? No.

I think that occupational health and safety officials, both in New Brunswick and across Canada, must look at this issue, visit the sites and really see whether employers are keeping their employees safe. If not, it's necessary to meet with these employers.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

What level of government enforces those labour conditions, enforces regulation? Is it the provincial government?

[Debbie Douglas]

The provincial government is responsible for our labour laws. The federal government is responsible for the migrant workers program. Hence, they both have some responsibility.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

They both have a hand in it.

This is the other thing I wanted to ask, really quickly. Minister Mendicino testified before this committee and talked about temporary foreign workers being given implied status and about a significant amount of flexibility being added to their work permits. Do you think that's sufficient?

You were talking, Ms. Douglas, about the regularization of the whole process being a broader opportunity. Do you think implied status is a good step forward during the pandemic?

[Debbie Douglas]

Implied status was necessary so that we didn't have a disruption in the workforce. Things shut down. Folks' work permits were running out. They needed to have them renewed and couldn't renew them. It makes sense to give implied status, but that implied status has nothing to do with regularization. As we've been saying, for folks who are here to work and to contribute, folks who have been working and have become sick, folks who are here undocumented and have established themselves, this is the moment for us to do both steps and put in place a regularization program for those who are here.

Second, it's time to take a look at our immigration program, including our economic class and our family reunification class, to see what changes we can make there so that when we're bringing in workers, they are coming in as permanent residents. It's similar to when we bring in convention refugees, for example. They are permanent residents on arrival. Those are the conversations we need to be looking at right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Douglas. Thank you, Mr. Turnbull.

Before we sign off, I'm going to take this rare occasion to exercise the chair's prerogative.

Mr. Thibodeau, I want to ask you a question that's very relevant to Prince Edward Island.

In your presentation, you spoke about the areas used to determine benefit levels. This issue is very significant in Prince Edward Island. What do you think about the area review process? The government's decision in 2014 has created a situation in Prince Edward Island that encourages dishonesty.

[Fernand Thibodeau]

I believe that you have two areas in Prince Edward Island. In my opinion, on a small island such as yours, only one area would be necessary.

Take the example of my area, Restigouche—Albert. Albert is close to Moncton, so close to urban centres. In terms of work, from an economic standpoint, we're located in the Acadian peninsula, where people work in seasonal industries. People drive two hours or more to get to Moncton or to where the area ends, or even to Restigouche, which is two hours from there.

I think that this is unreasonable. We want this to be a protected area, where the work done by seasonal workers could be properly recognized. In my opinion, the area should be changed, completely overhauled, because this hasn't been done in several years. This review should be carried out from an economic point of view. This would really meet the needs of seasonal workers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Ms. Douglas and Monsieur Thibodeau, for your testimony and the thorough manner in which you answered the questions. Also, thank you for your patience with the technical difficulties that we encountered. Be assured that what you had to say today was of great value to us in our work.

To my colleagues, we do not have another meeting scheduled until the third week of July. If that's the way this plays out, I wish you an excellent break from your headsets, if you're able to arrange it and get outside. Thank you for all the courtesies you have extended to me, to the witnesses and to one another.

With that, my friends, we are adjourned.