Human Resources Committee on April 24th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Could I ask you to give a brief answer, please.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

That is precisely why we are working with the provinces and territories on the issue of wage boosts for essential workers. We want the provinces to be able to decide what is essential in their jurisdictions. I know that, in Quebec, agriculture is truly essential.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you.

Ms. Kwan, for six minutes, please.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Minister. I appreciate the work being done with the CERB. It remains, though, from the NDP's perspective, that it would have been far better if the government had gone forward with a universal direct payment. We would not be in this complicated situation, where so many people are falling through the gaps and are stuck and cannot get access to support in a dire situation.

That said, I have a question for you on people who do not qualify right now.

As it stands, based on the current eligibility rules for the CERB, it would appear that single parents who are no longer receiving vital spousal or child support payments due to an ex-partner's income being affected by COVID-19 are not eligible. This leaves single parents scrambling without funds, and, of course, children are without the support they need.

Will people who receive spousal or child maintenance become eligible to receive the CERB, and will you allow this change to take place?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Thank you for that question. It's something I've been thinking a lot about as we've been looking at groups, in particular vulnerable groups.

For the group of women you're talking about—and I say this knowing that women are disproportionally in this situation—while they would have received, most likely because of low income, the additional goods and services tax credit we had, and while they are going to be receiving an additional increase through the Canada child benefit per child, that falls short of replacing income they would have had through spousal support payments.

I am looking into this. Although spousal support payments aren't technically considered employment income, it is something I'm turning my mind to because of the particular vulnerability of this group.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you, Minister. I hope that changes will be made because, as it stands right now, I have a number of constituents who are in this dire situation. It is not only people who are supposed to be receiving spousal support or child maintenance who are in a desperate situation. In fact, the ex-partners who want to ensure that their ex-spouses and children are provided support are equally anxious, because they are no longer in the position to provide that maintenance. I hope that we'll hear some good news. I would be happy to work with the office to address this issue, Minister.

I'd like to move on to another area, which is migrant workers and undocumented workers. We have a situation where now with COVID-19 many people's work permits have expired, and they are unable to have them processed and addressed through IRCC in a timely fashion. Consequently, they're not eligible for the CERB, because you have to have a valid SIN in order to be eligible. Will your government look at providing the CERB to those with an expired SIN so that they can get the critical support they need during this time?

For the undocumented workers, the people who are here in Canada, if they're forced to go out to work in an unsafe environment and therefore not flattening the curve or engaging in social distancing and so on, that creates all kinds of problems for all of us. The government can address that issue with the workers' individual tax number, ITN, so you can be sure that they are people who are supposed to be working and that they have an ITN. Is that something your government can address?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I'd certainly like to follow up with you on that particular point, especially the second part of your question.

As you're well aware, the way CERB eligibility works is you have to have a valid social insurance number. It's troubling me, and I've been trying to figure out a way.... Because of another system in government having backlogs, i.e. people aren't getting their social insurance numbers renewed or up to date, this might preclude eligibility in this case. I'm working with IRCC colleagues on that. I don't know, Graham, if you have an update, because I know we were looking into what we could do in that situation.

[Graham Flack]

We'll follow up, Minister.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Sorry, Ms. Kwan, I'm not avoiding your question. I just want to make sure we have the most up-to-date information for you.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I'll be happy—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

I'm sorry, Ms. Kwan, you're out of time.

You can finish that comment. Go ahead.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I would be happy to work with the officials, Minister, on this issue. A quick fix for that is to simply allow for the people with the expired SIN to collect the CERB.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Kwan.

Next we go back to the Conservatives for five minutes. We go to Mr. Albas again.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you again, Minister, for being here today.

Minister, following up on my earlier line of questions, I asked specifically about the CERB, which your officials have said about one third of the labour force is receiving right now. Did the CERB go through a gender-based plus analysis?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

We have been looking at every measure to see how it disproportionately impacts a number of groups, including women and girls. I guess I'm waffling a bit by saying that everything has gone through so quickly that I'd like to make sure that the rigour was put to it, but perhaps, Graham, you could answer for us.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I'd like to ask you a follow-up question on what you just said, Minister.

Would you be willing, if a gender-based analysis was done, to please submit it to this committee as well as to the Status of Women?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Yes, absolutely. I'll issue it with what information we have for you.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Minister, you said you clearly believe that you have the authority to make a regulatory workaround despite what the Canada emergency response benefit act says in regard to the eligibility, as in “ceases working for reasons related to COVID-19”.

You say you have a legal opinion. Are you prepared to share this legal opinion with this committee as well as with the Standing Joint Committee for the Scrutiny of Regulations?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I think I'll have to get back to you on the process side of that. I know that we have gotten advice from—

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

If you're confident in it, Minister, then—

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Can I finish? This is a very important answer.

We got legal advice from Justice that, by taking a broad interpretation of the first emergency legislation, we could make this regulatory change, but I need to figure that out. I apologize.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

If it's good enough for your government, Minister, I would hope it would be good enough for this committee, so I do hope you will commit to doing that. I'll ask you at the end to see if you've changed your mind.

In this announcement, going back to what you originally said about seasonal workers, your government said that seasonal workers would not be covered by the CERB, except that really wasn't the case. Instead, you extended the CERB to people whose EI had run out. This covers many seasonal workers, but I've heard from countless seasonal workers who are not EI eligible but who believe they are CERB eligible. Many have applied, believing they qualify. Why did you state seasonal workers are not eligible?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

The eligibility criteria are that if you made $5,000 in the past year and you've stopped working, or you've earned under $1,000.... The EI seasonal worker piece has to do with people whose claims have been exhausted or ended since, I think, December 29 or January 1. Seasonal workers are a specific subset of EI exhaustees.

I apologize—I'm not sure the exact reference you're making—but I think I was talking to people in seasonal jobs, so somebody who as a matter of course would go back to a specific seasonal job as opposed to the EI subset of seasonal workers.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Minister, the government not being clear on these things is a real problem. You have an opportunity to magnify your voice, your government's voice, to all members of Parliament. That's why I'd expect you to be clear when these things are announced, particularly when it's in front of a microphone.

Minister, in the House both the Prime Minister and the Minister of Families stated that students would be eligible for the CERB as long as they made $5,000 in the last year. What they neglected to say—exactly what you referenced—is that those students also needed to lose their job due to COVID-19. We know there are students who heard those words and applied for the benefit, thinking themselves eligible.

What will you do to address the students who have mistakenly applied after hearing the Prime Minister's statements, who clearly should fall under the CESB and not the CERB?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

First of all, if people applied for the CERB in good faith, there is no significant consequence except that they may be asked at some point to pay that money back. If they are eligible for the CESB, they can apply for that, and we will work with them to see what benefit stream they should have been in.

To be clear, we know that 43% or 45% of students were working in February and we anticipated a number of students being eligible for the CERB going into the March 15 to April 1 timeline. So it doesn't surprise me that a lot of students did lose their jobs because of COVID-19 and—