Human Resources Committee on Jan. 26th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

I call the meeting to order.

I'd like to begin by welcoming our new clerk, Danielle Widmer. Welcome, also, to Mr. Melillo and to all of the witnesses.

This is meeting number 12 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities. The meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of yesterday, January 25. Proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. The webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

In order to ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow. Members and witnesses can speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, on the bottom of your screen, of either floor, English or French audio.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name, and if you are participating by video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. When you are done speaking, please put your mike on mute to minimize any interference. Should any technical challenges arise, please notify me if you can. We'll pay close attention. If that happens, of course, it may be necessary to suspend for a few minutes to make sure all members are able to participate fully.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Friday, October 9, 2020, the committee resumes its study of urban, rural and northern indigenous housing.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses to begin our discussion with five minutes of opening remarks followed by questions. From the Aboriginal Housing Management Association we have Margaret Pfoh, chief executive officer, and from the Kenora District Services Board we have Henry Wall, chief administrative officer.

We're going to start with Ms. Pfoh, please, for five minutes. Welcome to the committee. You have the floor.

[Margaret Pfoh, Chief Executive Officer, Aboriginal Housing Management Association]

In the language of my ancestors, 'niit. Hello, everyone, and thank you for having us here. Toyaxsiim. Thank you all.

I'd like to start off by talking a little bit about our organization. As Canada's first indigenous grassroots housing authority, the Aboriginal Housing Management Association—AHMA—was created for indigenous people, by indigenous people. In addition to providing families with affordable and culturally appropriate housing, AHMA’s members offer many support services through 35 different programs, including homelessness prevention, transition homes, parenting skills, mental health programs, substance use support and more. As an indigenous organization, AHMA always brings cultural components to its relationship with its members. We recognize the dispossession of indigenous peoples caused by the Canadian government through a history of residential schools, the sixties scoop and the general consequences of colonization.

I want to take a brief moment to clarify the distinction of what we mean when we say “indigenous”. As you already titled your witnessing here, you've heard the term “urban, rural and northern”. We are the dispossessed, the disenfranchised from our sense of belonging to the three distinctions-based groups, having founded our own sense of community and belonging in the urban, rural and northern environments. We are the non-status, the status unknown, the migrating and the immigrant of the spectrums you refer to as distinctions-based groups. We know that in any given community of ours within B.C., our providers' clients comprise about 30% local nations, which means their communities are largely outside the scope of those three distinctions-based groups.

AHMA continues to work with its communities to reclaim self-determination through culturally appropriate housing that honours indigenous traditions in meaningful ways.

Following the 2019 federal election, the indigenous housing sector in B.C. and across Canada heaved a sigh of relief to see that Minister Hussen was mandated to create a national urban indigenous housing strategy. However, a year later, we are disheartened to see no tangible progress on this file. Considering the significant time and effort that has to be invested in this initiative and the wide consultation process that has to take place, we see the delay in initiating this project as a significant threat to its conception, notably in a minority government environment.

For this reason, AHMA’s board of directors has decided to invest our own funding to create a B.C. urban and rural indigenous housing strategy with the hope that, once completed, it will be considered for funding by our federal government, perhaps under a tripartite strategy that could be replicated in other provinces, such as Ontario, which has such a strong provincial indigenous leader in the Ontario Aboriginal Housing Services with its leader Justin Marchand, along with many others across the country.

An advisory committee composed of many internal and external stakeholders will oversee this progress and the development of the strategy and ensure that a vast and meaningful consultation is a crucial component of it.

The B.C. urban, rural and northern indigenous housing strategy will achieve multiple things, including defining and understanding who the urban, rural and northern indigenous housing and service providers are, and measuring their social and economic impact in supporting indigenous peoples. It will define current challenges in the delivery of urban, rural and northern indigenous housing, and propose solutions to bridge the gaps. It will assess B.C.’s indigenous urban, rural and northern housing needs and develop a 10-year plan to respond to the needs, not only fixing existing stock and building new units but also creating new and culturally appropriate housing programs. It will also develop an implementation and delivery plan that identifies the role of AHMA, member organizations, funders and partners; assess and build capacities for AHMA membership in housing-related domains; and finally, identify key partners to support the implementation of the strategy, which will be specific municipalities, MLAs, MPs, other indigenous organizations, and so on.

Only through meaningful engagement with AHMA and indigenous housing and service partners across Canada can the social, economic and indigenous rights of urban, rural and northern indigenous peoples in Canada be claimed and protected.

Toyaxsiim. Thank you all for having me. I'll leave it there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you very much, Ms. Pfoh.

Now we're going to hear from Mr. Wall for five minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Henry Wall, Chief Administrative Officer, Kenora District Services Board]

Good afternoon.

Thank you to the chair and the members of the standing committee for the opportunity to speak to you today. I join you today from the community of Dryden in northwestern Ontario, which sits on the lands of the Anishinabe nation in Treaty No. 3. We also sit on the traditional territory of Wabigoon first nation and Eagle Lake First Nation.

I want to do an acknowledgement of our elders, who have been and are praying that at the meeting today our words will be clear and well understood so that this can actually result in meaningful action.

My name is Henry Wall, and I serve as the chief administrative officer for the Kenora District Services Board, or KDSB, as I will keep referring to it. KDSB is responsible for the delivery of paramedic land ambulance services across the district. We are responsible for social assistance, which includes poverty reduction programs, employment readiness and life stabilization programs, and financial assistance; for child care and early years development programs across the district; and, last but not least, housing and homelessness prevention across the district of Kenora, which I have to say covers 407,000 square kilometres. You can fit most of Europe into our district and our area of our responsibility when it comes to housing and homelessness.

I want to say meegwetch to the members of this committee, who I know really supported us and helped us from all sides of the House to finally have KDSB and our district designated under the Reaching Home program. That just happened in March. Thank you so much for that. Meegwetch. It couldn't have come at a better time, given the pandemic.

Having such a broad mandate certainly gives us a very interesting perspective in terms of the realities that families face in our region. I will tell you that it's not by accident or coincidence that of all 338 federal ridings in Canada, in the district of Kenora we have the seventh-highest rate of families with children living in poverty. Our wait-list for affordable housing has increased by 257% since 2011. As of August 2020, we had over 1,363 households and families who were approved and waiting for affordable housing. These are just the families who have not given up on the hope of finally attaining housing.

I also want to say that on an annual basis, in our three emergency shelters in the district that KDSB supports and funds, we support over 2,100 unique individuals each and every single year. Over 2,000 of those individuals every year are first nations, so when you look at it from a context of a rural standpoint, it's 2,000 people. That's the size of many communities across Canada's rural parts.

Pre-COVID, we estimate that we had approximately 393 individuals off reserve who were homeless at any given time. That represents about 1.08% of our overall population. Now we have the pandemic, and I can tell you that it is much worse, just with the sheer number of individuals that have been displaced out of their communities, displaced out of the correctional system, displaced out of the health care system and displaced out of the child welfare system.

I say those things, and in 2018 when we did our homeless enumeration study, we found that 18% of our homeless population was incarcerated at the time of the study. In other words, one in five of our homeless is in jail at any given time. In fact, that year, we also found that Canada and Ontario combined spend more money on housing indigenous homeless people in the Kenora jail than they do in providing funding to KDSB when it comes to housing and homelessness prevention. When we talk about financial sustainability, I can tell you that the path that existing systems are on in our region is not sustainable, and it's not doing us any favours, which is why a strategy is needed.

I also want to say that not having safe, attainable and affordable housing in our district.... “Attainable” is really important, especially when it comes to indigenous people, because it matters if you're indigenous or not if you can attain housing very often. I want to say that, because of that, what we're seeing is that our housing continuum has expanded to include the jails, the child welfare system, our health care system and our streets. That is not just inappropriate, but as a country we shouldn't stand for it.

I want to applaud the work that's taking place on the committee. I want to say we need a housing strategy that will commit a long-term, stable flow of financial resources so that our communities can develop, on our own terms, our capacity to build and create homes for our families.

We need a housing strategy that allows for flexibility in order for communities to build homes that meet the cultural needs of the families that live in our communities, both on and off reserve. We need a housing strategy that supports and empowers partnerships between municipalities and first nation communities so that we can come together to build homes where they're needed, not where it's convenient for government to place them, or where jurisdictional limitations of existing programs dictate they should be.

In closing, I just want to say thank you for the opportunity today. I also want to state that if Canada is serious about making progress on reconciliation, then we cannot forget that we need to have a housing strategy that is inclusive to all, that is specific, that is progressive and aggressive, and that ensures that all families have a home and a place to be.

With that, I think it's imperative that we recognize that not much else matters to families unless they have a safe, attainable and affordable home of their own. There's a difference between having a house and a home, especially when we're talking from an indigenous perspective.

Thank you very much. Chi-meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you very much, Mr. Wall.

We'll now begin our rounds of questions, starting with the Conservatives.

Mr. Vis, go ahead for six minutes, please.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

First off, I'd like to begin by thanking Ms. Pfoh and Mr. Wall for appearing today.

I really appreciated the intensity of both your opening statements and the amount of information you covered. That's very, very helpful and very well presented.

Let me begin by saying that I have a lot to learn on this file. I admit that, because I want to be able to do my best to get some things right for indigenous people. I have a lot of work to do, and the Conservative Party has a lot of work to do, to get things right.

Ms. Pfoh, I'm assuming that you believe, and we all agree here, I think, that the Government of Canada is not meeting its housing requirement to urban indigenous people. Would you be able to provide any context in terms of what would be adequate housing for urban indigenous Canadians?

[Margaret Pfoh]

T’oyaxsut nüün, Brad. Thank you.

You know, for us it really comes down to the old cliché of nothing about us without us. To be clear, from my perspective and from that of the many organizations I work with...not just AHMA but the Canadian Housing and Renewal Association and their indigenous caucus. I have also sat with Leilani Farha as the previous UN special rapporteur on housing and her ad hoc coalition and the OFIFC. We've all had conversations about what that really looks like and what that means. It really means that we have an opportunity as urban indigenous people to sit at the design table and to actually speak with government as an equal partner in the creation of what that looks like.

Housing, as Henry spoke to, is more than just bricks and mortar. It's about giving a sense of home. It's about giving a sense of belonging. For the dispossessed and disenfranchised people who have been living in urban areas for a long, long time, that looks different from just your standard bricks and mortar.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you.

Just to understand the unique governance model that does exist in British Columbia, AHMA was formed in approximately 2012-13, when CMHC devolved its responsibility to B.C. Housing and subsequently to your organization. What's your relationship with CMHC today?

[Margaret Pfoh]

It's interesting; Minister Duclos and I had a good conversation prior to him being succeeded by Minister Hussen. Our organization dates back to the 1990s. The grassroots foundation started with devolution of the housing programs across the country from the federal government to the provinces. We were fortunate here that the Province of B.C. agreed that “for indigenous, by indigenous” should exist even back then and had a strong commitment to allow us to be at the table to negotiate how that transfer would happen.

The CMHC of the day said they didn't care what we did with this program as long as poor Indians got housed. The Province of B.C. was fortunate enough to say that they actually wanted us to to decide for ourselves how that looks. That is the current iteration of AHMA.

Evan Siddall is a breath of fresh air. I have to say that we've seen a lot of genuine interest in their processes and in their communication strategies to interact with us and have conversations. When the rapid housing initiative was released, I reached out to Evan and asked him to treat AHMA as a municipality because of our broad representation. If they're going to make allocations to municipalities, we would like to get a lump sum allocation for our programs. He said no, but he said he's not opposed to that idea. We continue to work with him today on what that could look like, going forward.

So I'd say it's good. It's better than it was.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

That's really good to hear. In previous testimony, CMHC informed the committee that they have 75 dedicated workers on indigenous housing issues across Canada. From what I'm hearing from you, you would say that dedicated staff working in partnership on an equal basis, either with housing organizations such as yours or directly with first nations, has been an improvement from CMHC.

[Margaret Pfoh]

Yes, to be clear, the wheels of change take time, and I think there are a lot of good people—and there have been a lot of good people—in government and in government organizations like CMHC. However, I think it's very easy to fall back into the old systems of colonialism, which means saying, “Yes, I hear you” and then doing it the way the government thinks they should do it, rather than actually allowing the indigenous representation to help truly drive the solution.

I would say, based on my last conversation with Evan Siddall and Romy Bowers, that it seems that there is a genuine interest. They phrased it as, “We'd like to hear how you think things should be done, and then we will support you.” That sounds a little bit different.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you.

I'm very enthused to hear that you guys have just gone ahead and taken control of your own destiny. You're building your own strategy, not only for British Columbia but possibly as a model for the entire country.

Do you have any preliminary financial numbers you would be able to share with this committee in terms of what you would expect from the Government of Canada to meet its constitutional requirement to provide adequate housing to urban indigenous Canadians—in British Columbia in your context?

[Margaret Pfoh]

We've done a number of research documents leading up to the onset of our current strategy. We have a study that was done in partnership with UBC—the University of British Columbia—and a number of other housing-focused entities here in B.C. that talks about the municipality lens of housing and what needs to happen within the municipalities to garner the support needed to actually effect change.

It's great if the federal government gives out all sorts of money through funding streams and programs, but if municipalities and provincial governments aren't coming to the table as equal partners, we often see that there are huge gaps, especially in the indigenous housing sector, in responding effectively to some of these calls to action.

I'm happy to share with this committee the Cleo Breton report, which shows how there are massive gaps between what municipalities say they are trying to do and what they're actually doing in terms of the housing commitment.

We also did a study with Urban Matters that did an economic analysis on the impact of urban indigenous housing programs to the community and to the levels of government. We discovered a number of things. Again, I'm happy to share those reports with this committee afterwards. I apologize—I should have thought to send it to you with our briefing documents.

We certainly have discovered that here in British Columbia, since our inception in the 1990s, for every dollar that's invested in urban indigenous housing, we spin off 230% back to the community. Again, I'm happy to share that so you can see the data and the analysis. I can't speak to an actual dollar amount, but we have eight key findings that speak to a number of target populations—including youth aging out of care, elders aging into care and women and girls fleeing domestic violence or violence within their community—as some of the growing cases as a consequence of COVID.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you.

I want to stop you there. We're about two minutes over time.

We would be happy to receive the reports you suggested, at your convenience after the meeting.

Thank you, Mr. Vis.

We're going to move now to Mr. Long.

Go ahead, please, for six minutes.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, colleagues.

Thank you very much, witnesses, for your testimony this afternoon.

I am speaking to you on the unceded land of the Wolastoqey peoples. I'm entering my sixth year on HUMA. I don't know of a more important study.

Ms. Pfoh, my initial questions are for you. Again, I want to thank you for sharing your perspective and for the incredible work you and AHMA are doing in B.C.

I want to ask you for your thoughts on the Vancouver community entity under the designated community stream of Reaching Home being changed from Vancity to Lu'ma in the past year. How has the transition to an indigenous-led entity affected the delivery supports for those experiencing homelessness in your area, particularly for indigenous folks experiencing homelessness there?

[Margaret Pfoh]

Thank you for that.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I am very sorry, but our esteemed interpreters were not able to provide French interpretation of what the member said. I would like him to repeat his question, please.

I know it's not your fault, dear interpreters.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Yes. Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Madam Clerk, I wonder if you can help us out here.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Danielle Widmer]

Could you put the microphone a little closer to your mouth? Could you give it a test again?

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

How is that?

[The Clerk]

That's good. Thank you, Mr. Long.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Long, I think Madam Chabot was unable to hear your question.

I know there was a lengthy preamble, but we'll restart the clock if you could please repose the question. Thank you.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Sure.

Good afternoon to everybody. Ms. Pfoh, again, thanks for your passion. It comes through in your presentation, and I appreciate everything you do for housing in your community. I wanted to get your thoughts on Vancouver's community entity under the designated community stream of Reaching Home being changed from Vancity to Lu'ma in the past year.

How has the transition to an indigenous-led entity affected delivery supports for those experiencing homelessness in the area and particularly indigenous folks who are experiencing homelessness there?

[Margaret Pfoh]

Thank you for that question.

The answer lies within the question itself. The transition to an indigenous-led organization is one less barrier to the people who are experiencing homelessness on the streets of Vancouver. I happen to have had the privilege, when it was transferred over to Lu'ma, to go and do some consultation processes. One of the critical things is their ability to see the lens of need for the community from an indigenous perspective. I would say it's been fantastic and I would highly recommend it. As I said in my opening presentation, anything about indigenous peoples should be led for and by indigenous peoples, so I think it's been fantastic.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Can you give me specific examples of how it is better? I absolutely agree with you that it is better, but can you just give us, as a committee, examples of things you've seen where you're more responsive?