Evidence of meeting #17 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was study.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Benoît Long  Chief Transformation Officer, Department of Employment and Social Development
Andrew Brown  Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Danielle Widmer

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 17 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. The webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, October 28, 2020, the committee will commence its study of the review of the employment insurance program.

I would like to welcome our witnesses to begin our discussion with five minutes of opening remarks, followed by questions. We have with us, from the Department of Employment and Social Development, Benoît Long, chief transformation officer; Andrew Brown, director general; and Michael MacPhee, director general.

I'm not sure if this is necessary, but for the benefit of the witnesses, I will offer a few additional comments.

Interpretation of the video conference will work very much like an in-person committee meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of floor, English or French. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you're not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

Mr. Long, you have the floor for five minutes. Welcome to the committee.

3:35 p.m.

Benoît Long Chief Transformation Officer, Department of Employment and Social Development

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

The Government of Canada's legacy systems that support the delivery of our key income support programs are among the oldest IT systems in Canada still in use today. The EI system is nearly 50 years old. The CPP one is 20, and the OAS system is nearly 60. The age and condition of these systems are a continual concern for ESDC. Building and maintaining enterprise IT systems is a high-risk item for governments with low public visibility. Canadians do not think about the benefits of delivery systems until they fail.

The 2010 OAG report provides a full measure of the risks that we manage every day to deliver the benefits that over nine million people depend on every day to live. As a result of a succession of budget investments, ESDC has made progress in addressing technical debt on EI, CPP and OAS, and ensuring that benefit payments continue to flow. There are considerable costs and risks in continuing to extend the life and add on to the aged systems. Some of these include upgrades to reflect new policy changes that are costly and sometimes present significant and unsolvable technological obstacles, given the state of these legacy systems.

Some of the code is in a language that's so archaic it's no longer taught in universities. Critical personnel retire, and their knowledge slowly gets lost. Decision-makers value optionality in EI of course, as governments have always sought optionality in those cases, and it allows targeting of particular groups that need help. This challenge has also led to a complex web of rules and code built out over nearly five decades, and the people who can program this custom system are becoming fewer and harder to find.

As you may recall from last year, there were many stories in the United States about many states unable to reconfigure their UI systems because they couldn't find the right personnel to do the work. The complex application and processing requirements that underpin these legacy systems lead to higher rates of error, mistakes, missed payments and fraud. They cost money and shake citizens' trust in our systems. These systems were never intended for today's needs—both the needs of public servants supporting the government and Canadian citizens alike.

Finally, applying for benefits on these old systems can be complicated and confusing. The number of unclaimed benefits is high, particularly in the pension piece, and those unpaid are almost always our country's most vulnerable, including low-income seniors, indigenous people and persons with disabilities.

Of course, we do have a plan. Our goal is to build on the EI service quality review that was done a couple of years ago, which showed that many Canadians feel they're waiting too long for the benefits they need. The panel's recommendations at the time were for improvements to the EI program, including replacing outdated technology systems. In 2020, the Government of Canada announced in its Speech from the Throne that the government will make generational investments in updating outdated IT systems to modernize the way the government serves Canadians, from the elderly to the young, from people who are looking for work to those living with a disability.

Moreover, over the coming months, the EI system will become the sole delivery mechanism for employment benefits, including for Canadians who did not qualify for EI before the pandemic. The pandemic has shown that Canada needs an EI system for the 21st century, including for the self-employed and those in the gig economy.

Replacing our legacy system is no longer an option to consider. It's critical to continue to do that in order to allow the government to continue to function. The government has some solid lessons learned in terms of what to do and not to do. On the do list is to avoid big bang approaches, which is even more important when people's pay is at risk, and to apply agile project management techniques. That means iterative incremental progressive builds as the best way to solve problems and to channel innovation.

On the don't list—it may be a bit longer—is to avoid having the government assume all of the risk in building big IT systems. The private sector spent billions producing commercial off-the-shelf systems. Governments around the world are partnering with the private sector to avoid the expense, difficulty and uncertainty of designing and implementing custom systems. Canada continues to be well-advised to do the same. We should never let planning be the enemy of doing. Big IT systems are expensive and complex, take a long time to build, and benefit from numerous checks. Traditional project management approaches may not be sufficient or adequate for today's world, and the government has adopted some internationally well-known best practices in this context.

Finally, we're introducing BDM, which is an acronym for benefits delivery modernization. It's been three years in the making. We've been doing a lot of planning, and we're poised to start implementing it in the next few months. That's our goal for sure. Working with Treasury Board and ESDC, we've designed a mission-critical transformation program to meet and succeed in delivering this historic mandate.

It's going to require tailored governance, iterative and incremental building, the best talent that the public service can bring together, as well as people from across the world who we've been recruiting to help us out.

We're going to build a BDM platform over a number of years in a series of tranches—phases, if you prefer—and frankly, we're going to start this year with putting in the foundations as soon as all the approvals have been obtained. The new BDM foundation will be very agile and provide a set of capabilities that will allow future benefits to be deployed on that platform, similar to what the private sector does.

We're procuring commercial off-the-shelf technology—that's our goal—that's already useful and also successfully used across the world in many jurisdictions, some in national government, which has been tested often and deployed on complex benefits like the ones we have.

We've put in place an “equi-system”—that's our word—a series of qualified suppliers that are going to help us, and they're all world-class organizations that are meant to come together and work in partnership with us to deliver as quickly as possible the best possible systems the government can put in place.

Finally, the BDM platform—and I'll close on this—is going to expedite the onboarding of many benefits. I think it has been the goal of many ministers and deputy ministers of our department to be able to respond much more quickly to policies, policies that governments want to introduce and generally start [Technical difficulty—Editor]. We would love to be able to do it, but it's very difficult, and frankly, our systems may not be able to support it. We would like to change that as quickly as possible.

We definitely want to personalize and tailor the system to the benefits and the needs of clients. We want digital-by-design approaches and omni-channel and multi-channel experiences where people can apply on one channel and complete an application in another, and obviously bring client experiences up to par with what people would expect from the private sector.

I'll close on this point, Mr. Chair. My two colleagues are here to not only answer questions about the current state of EI but also about what we're trying to do in the future. We look forward to your questions.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you, Mr. Long.

We are going to begin with questions now, starting with the Conservatives.

Ms. Dancho, please, you have six minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Long, for your opening remarks. We greatly appreciate your being here with us today.

I'm wondering if your department is considering an extension of the CRB, given the substantial number of Canadians who are about to reach their 26-week maximum benefit next month.

3:40 p.m.

Chief Transformation Officer, Department of Employment and Social Development

Benoît Long

I'll defer the question to Andrew Brown, if that's possible. He is our lead in policy.

3:40 p.m.

Andrew Brown Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Thank you, Benoît.

Thanks for the question.

I'm Andrew Brown, the director general for employment insurance policy. That also includes policy for the Canada recovery benefit.

What I can tell you right now is that we are monitoring very closely the use of those benefits. We know that, since the end of September, when people moved from the CERB to EI regular benefits and others would have started to receive the Canada recovery benefit, they could use up the 26 weeks of benefits available as early as the end of March, so we are continuing to monitor use.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Are you looking to extend it? That must be something you're modelling.

3:40 p.m.

Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Andrew Brown

We're trying to understand the number of people who could be running out of benefits so that we could provide options.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

We know the Canadian Labour Congress has come out today suggesting or asking that you extend it, so I would be surprised if you weren't modelling it already.

3:40 p.m.

Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Andrew Brown

Exactly, we're looking at the numbers, trying to understand how many people may run out at the end of March.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

How much has been spent to date on the three CRB benefits?

3:40 p.m.

Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Andrew Brown

In terms of the three benefits to date, we've seen now more than 1.7 million Canadians make use of the Canada recovery benefit, about 300,000 who have made use of the recovery sickness benefit, and I believe a slightly higher number—not in front of me right now—who have used the Canada recovery caregiving benefit.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Do you know how much that has cost? What has been the total payout?

3:40 p.m.

Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Andrew Brown

I should be able to get that within a few minutes. I don't have that right in front of me at the moment.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

We can come back to it at the end.

I know that the CERB, as mentioned by Mr. Long and elsewhere, is not coming out of EI and that it's going to come out of general revenue or deficit finance. Is it the same plan for CRB, or will the CRB come out of the EI account?

3:40 p.m.

Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Andrew Brown

The CRB is not coming from the EI account. It is coming from the consolidated revenue fund.

I actually have the numbers here now.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Great.

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Andrew Brown

In terms of the Canada recovery benefit, it's now just under $10 billion, $9.6 billion to date. In terms of the Canada recovery sickness benefit, it's $328 million to date, and in terms of the Canada recovery caregiving benefit, it's $1.34 billion to date. Those are the latest figures we have available.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

I appreciate that. Thank you.

Regarding the EI that's been paid out to date, have you seen a jump in how much EI there's been from the EI account itself, not CERB and not CRB. Do you anticipate an increase for what that will cost for 2020 versus 2019, as well as 2021? Will there be more than normal for 2020-21?

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Andrew Brown

There would certainly be more than normal paid out from the EI operating account. That really comes from two factors. One is simply that because of the economic conditions of many people having been laid off—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

For sure.

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Andrew Brown

There's that. There's also the impact of the temporary measures providing greater access and greater generosity—that minimum $500 per week benefit rate.

Roughly speaking, we estimate that this would be, over the course of the year, about $10 billion additional.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

It's $10 billion additional. That's quite substantial, and as you're aware, as I'm aware, EI premiums have been frozen until 2023 when they can go up again. Have you modelled the maximum increase?

Do you believe the maximum increase for premiums, which is 5¢ a year, will be required starting in 2023 to ensure the balance in the account over the seven years? Do you anticipate that this will be required?

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Andrew Brown

Right now, the challenge is understanding where the economics will go over the next, in fact, seven years to determine what the increase is. Certainly there's upward pressure in terms of increased benefits, which could push premium rates up.

I think one of the things that's important to recognize is that—as was also done with the CERB, which was of course very substantial spending—the CRB will not be charged to the EI operating account.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Right, which would really push it over the limit, I'm sure, which is why it was not done that way. However, it sounds like there's going to be, as you said, $10 billion more for EI being paid out, so I would anticipate that there would be considerable pressure as soon as the freeze on those premiums is alleviated in 2023 to ensure that balance over seven years. I think that's a correct assumption.