Human Resources Committee on Feb. 18th, 2021

[Andrew Brown]

Thanks for the question, Ms. Gazan.

You are raising very important points about a guaranteed livable income or other ways that we could provide income support to Canadians.

From my perspective and what I am able to speak to in my role, we have been looking at what can be done through the employment insurance program. By its nature, it's focused on income supports for people who are working in some way and currently focused on those in employed work. We would need to then think about how it could be expanded to others. Of course, an element is that people are paying premiums. Beyond that, I—

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I'm sorry. I asked that because I know Mr. Long pointed to a number of bureaucratic issues within EI that are costly. I am just wondering—and would recommend, actually, as I know it's a study—if exploring the cost to keep people in a system that's not working and moving towards systems that are more inclusive in terms of spreading guaranteed income programs out might be looked into.

I actually have another question. I want to talk a little about temporary foreign workers and seasonal agricultural workers who pay into EI benefits. Since they leave the country when they are done working, they don't actually benefit from the programs they're paying into. This has been raised for a long time.

Why is this still the case? Is there any plan to rectify the situation?

I'm not sure who can answer that.

[Andrew Brown]

Maybe I'll begin. Thanks for the question.

To begin with, of course, the EI program does work on the basis of universal coverage. Workers pay in and then, if they are laid off, for example, they are able to access the benefits. In the case of temporary foreign workers, they can do that while they are in Canada in terms of receiving EI regular benefits. If that person then leaves the country they are no longer, at that point, available and looking for work, so they would not be eligible to receive EI regular benefits, in other words, for job loss.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

We know this happens. We know people come to work and they leave. They provide essential services for Canada. They leave and they don't benefit. Don't you think that's problematic?

I am wondering why nothing is being done about it. People are paying into programs. We know they're not going to benefit from the system. To burden people to pay out of their often inadequate salaries for programs they won't even benefit from, I find problematic. Are there any plans to change that?

[Andrew Brown]

Again, what I'm trying to make sure the committee is aware of is that there are people who are benefiting who are temporary foreign workers. With an insurance program, you pay the premiums, and then if you meet the conditions, you can receive payment. If you aren't, for example, laid off, you also don't receive any payment from the program.

Those are the rules as they are at the moment. One of the risks if you were to, for example, indicate that temporary foreign workers would not have to pay premiums, would be that you could be making it cheaper for employers to hire temporary foreign workers rather than Canadians or permanent residents. That is just to say that this is an area that needs to be reviewed very carefully before moving.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Yes. I will leave it at that, but I just want to say that if there's anything COVID has shown us, it's the abuse of temporary and migrant workers. This has been an ongoing issue that has not been addressed.

I would argue that certainly what you have presented is one part. The other part is another way that temporary workers and seasonal workers are exploited in our country.

My last question is about—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

That was your last question, Ms. Gazan.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I have a million questions, but thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

You are going to get another turn.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Vis, go ahead, please, for five minutes.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both of our witnesses for being here today.

I have a quick point of clarification. You called it the legacy system. It's basically an antique. When was the last time our EI system technology was updated?

[Benoît Long]

The technology itself has been updated over the last 50 years quite a number of times. I would say that if you were an archaeologist, you would see that every 10 years or so a new investment has been made, but it has made it so complex and difficult that now we're at a point where making changes requires us to test everything going back to 50 years ago, so that's problematic.

There hasn't been a significant overhaul.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Wow. That answers my question. I think you guys should get into negotiations with the Canadian Museum of Science and Technology or make a Heritage Minute. When this program is finally changed, we could have a Heritage Minute, and hopefully, we wouldn't have to wait on the line so long to speak with someone about our EI claim. I joke; I did appreciate your opening deck.

The 2019 AG report on call centres recommended that ESDC improve callers' access to live agents. ESDC agreed, stating that their current ability to manage and improve access to a call centre agent was limited by the existing technology, which we just covered, but also by the funding.

Has the funding now been put in place to improve the system?

[Benoît Long]

I was going to start by asking if Mike wanted to contribute. Mike has been a long-time manager of capacity in the call centres, so he would know a lot.

The government did make significant investments in the technology as well as the workloads and supports to improve that situation. Of course, the 2020 situation is historically different from anything we have ever lived before, but the government did move and did put funding forward.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Is the funding in place now?

[Benoît Long]

It is.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Good.

A modernization was planned for 2020. Did the pandemic delay that, or has it already begun?

[Benoît Long]

No. Part of my presentation was to explain where we are on the modernization program. It has proceeded. Of course, we had to divert 25% of our resources to deal with the emerging emergencies, but we were able to deploy a new system even if temporarily. It dealt with two new benefits last year, so that was quite an achievement during a pandemic. We're very proud of that as well as, of course, the CERB work that was done.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Obviously, the previous business risk management plan by the department was woefully inadequate for dealing with the pandemic, because we would have had to switch our major benefits to the Canada Revenue Agency from Employment and Social Development Canada.

Has the department's business risk management plan been updated for a future pandemic?

[Benoît Long]

Part of the modernization program is the response to the change in business continuity issues. I would say that part of what we are doing today, obviously, is imagining a different future with better systems and newer systems.

Last year when we were dealing with CERB and the requirements, the system was unable to accommodate a lot of change very quickly, and we were quite nervous about the volume of transactions that would take place. That's why a decision was made to split it.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Let's say the South African variant of COVID-19 explodes, we have to shut down our entire country again and millions of Canadians have to go back on employment insurance. Would the system be able to manage that today?

[Benoît Long]

Yes, it would.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you. That's reassuring.

In your opening remarks, you expressed confidence in the new BDM process and the gradual rollout. Will the rollout be on a geographic or a benefit-by-benefit basis?

[Benoît Long]

It will be on a benefit-by-benefit basis. Part of the reason for this is that other countries have tried different methods such as postal codes, geographic areas or groups of people. In our case, EI in particular is made up of seven core benefits, and we have to go one benefit at a time, because for seven years we will have to run the old system and the new system at the same time. It was too complicated technologically to do it differently.