Human Resources Committee on March 9th, 2021

[Carl Pursey]

No, there have been no groups in favour of it.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Has the system or the zones been reviewed? If so, what is the process? Does that include public input?

[Carl Pursey]

I don't know what the process is. It would be up to the government what it is doing to review them. There are problems here for employers and workers and everything else.

With the zones, some employers are having problems employing people, because they'll ask which zone someone lives in. If someone lives in one zone and the employer needs them for seasonal work, they know that person is going to require more weeks of work than they can offer. It's a whole mess, and they can't get the same workers back each year and this type of thing. Everybody's complaining about the system.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

In the last six years, has organized labour been invited to help in the review of this set-up?

[Carl Pursey]

No, but we've lobbied in Ottawa and here locally to have a review of this. We're trying to get something done on it, but it's a fairly complex issue. We've tried to get all the negative changes by the previous government reversed, but we're not able to get everything done.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

I see.

Someone would argue that there are 62 economic zones in Canada, including three in New Brunswick. What is it about P.E.I. that makes having more than one zone particularly unfair?

[Carl Pursey]

To start with, it's the way the zones are drawn up. There are four ridings in P.E.I. and one of them was never touched. That affects all of the other three. The riding that wasn't affected was held by a member of the previous government. Her riding was left intact as rural, and the way they drew the straight lines impacted every other riding on the island.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

It sounds like there's a problem.

In response to COVID, the government has deemed the unemployment rate to be at 13.1% in several EI zones, including both zones in P.E.I., and set the amount of hours required to qualify for benefits at 120 hours.

How has that been received in P.E.I. by your members?

[Carl Pursey]

With the COVID money coming in, and a lot of people still working, I haven't heard too many effects on anything, other than it's right that the money's coming from Ottawa and everybody seems to be doing great on it.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Does this mean that the impact of the two zone decision back in 2014 has been somewhat negated?

[Carl Pursey]

Yes, but it will go back to the same thing again once the COVID money stops. That's why we're saying there should be a minimum base to the amount you draw from EI, and for the amount of weeks, so that everybody here cannot draw less than $500 a week, and that they can draw it for longer if they need it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Dong.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Pursey, as much as I would love for you to go on, that is your time.

Now we're going to Madam Chabot.

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

We certainly responded to the crisis by putting certain measures in place. It was important to do so, but we now have to focus on things ahead. That is the goal of this study.

Nine million workers found themselves out of a job because of the health crisis. The opposition parties rallied behind the government to provide assistance. However, although all those measures have been extended, they are temporary. If we want a long-term vision, we have to act now in order to propose something constructive, if I may use the word, for the workers.

I would first like to talk about seasonal work and the famous black hole. In seasonal industries like tourism, fishing and forestry, for example, the black hole represents the weeks during which workers have no income. In addition, the number of weeks of eligibility for employment insurance varies by region.

In order to achieve some reform, do we have to put an end to that problem once and for all?

My question goes to both witnesses, who can add comments if they wish.

[Denis Bolduc]

If I may, I will make a quick comment.

We are currently trying to reform the employment insurance program. We have been asking for that for a long time and it has been needed for a long time. Certainly, let's take advantage of this program review to also focus on the black hole problem. We have to find solutions.

People must not be penalized because they have a seasonal job. In that type of job, there's a short period during which they can contribute to the employment insurance program and longer periods during which they are unemployed. This is typical of certain regions, not only in Quebec, but also all over Canada. We have to get on board and solve these issues, especially the black hole. We must not miss this opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Bolduc and Ms. Chabot.

The last questioner for this panel is Ms. Gazan, please, for two and a half minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you, Chair, and I will follow up with you, Mr. Pursey.

You spoke about how we need to ensure that we also remove other barriers. You mentioned specifically pharmacare and child care, for example.

I say that because a Liberal member of Parliament just introduced Bill C-273, which calls for a study. What my main concern with this bill is, in opposition to the guaranteed livable basic income motion 46 I put forward.... I was very clear in that motion that a guaranteed livable basic income must be in addition to current and future government programs and support. Subparagraph 3(3)(d)(i) in the bill is very concerning to me because it opens the door to, for example, replacing existing social programs. We know through studies that this could actually leave people further in poverty.

You mentioned that, especially in regard to women trying to get back to work. Could you expand on that?

[Carl Pursey]

Yes. That's why we need to take time and not try to rush something through in a few weeks. We have to see that everything is done so the program is going to work, that it's not going to be a false lead we give people and it will last forever.

All these areas have to be studied. We can refer to many experts in these areas to get information from.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Expanding on that, I'm a recovering academic. I'm all for research and study. However we do know there has already been a lot of study of the guaranteed livable basic income, particularly in Manitoba. Ontario was also undergoing a guaranteed livable basic income program that saw great results. It was unfortunately killed by the Conservative Ford government.

Going back to my concern about a guaranteed livable basic income, I support the notion, again, of it having to be in addition to current and future government supports and programs.

What specific aspect do you still feel needs to be studied in regard to the extensive research that has already been done?

[Carl Pursey]

The studies I referred to call for removing the barriers, because if the barriers are left in place, no matter what you put in for a guaranteed basic income will not work.

We saw it work partly in Quebec when they put in affordable child care. Then in Quebec they had the highest family income in the country, surpassing that of Alberta.

These are steps in the right direction. These are not steps that cost taxpayers dollars and we have to raise more money for. In the end they pay off, and they pay off well, and they have more workers working and spending money locally and paying taxes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

That has certainly been demonstrated in research.

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Gazan.

That concludes our questions for this panel.

Mr. Pursey and Mr. Bolduc, thank you very much for your testimony as representatives of your respective organizations. You also have our congratulations for the excellent work you are doing.

We're going to let you go, bid you adieu, and thanks.

[Carl Pursey]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Members of the committee, please stand by. We have a bit of committee business to deal with.